$25 NLHE 6-max: 55 facing an all-in by a short stack

nabmom

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Villain stats = 17/17 over only 25 hands and villain has never shoved so far or even 4bet.

From MP I flat call an EP standard raise by a 16/12 (over 25 hands). Other players at the table show reg types of stats and I want to set mine with my 55.

BB decides to shove with a very short-stack.

My decision for calling the shove was that it wasn't that much more money to put in.

My question is: should that ever be the way to consider calling a shove? If we assume he'll only shove with top of his range (and can we assume anything else with a player that we don't have many hands on and we know isn't a maniac?) then I'll be pretty much behind every time.

Merge - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: $25.95
Hero (CO): $27.63
BTN: $7.15
SB: $24.68
BB: $6.99
UTG: $35.23

SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.35) Hero has 5 5

fold, MP raises to $0.75, Hero calls $0.75, fold, fold, BB raises to $6.99 and is all-in, fold, Hero calls $6.24
 
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You should never call that unless you clearly read TILT (ie a bad beat that got him down to that stack) or maniac. You're at best hoping for a coinflip. (I mean even 810o is a coinflp)...or, likely, praying for a 5. Easy fold.

Edit; just reread the part about it not being that much more. In a cash game..if you're reading that (and I thiink you. Are) its a -ev decision...don't make it. Fold. You're going to face that decision hundreds of times as u play and if u keep calling..will add up. (Unless you're saying blinds make the call worth it...don't think that's what u meant tho).

that's an ok rationale for tournies in some situations..ie where you're big stack and someone who's on bubble is shoving smallstack. Cash I think its just -ev
 
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acky100

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I call probably. I think we have enough equity against his range to call.
 
WVHillbilly

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I call probably. I think we have enough equity against his range to call.
Meh. Close but probably not. Need 43% probably have 40%. I probably spite call too cause **** you shorty but it's likely a marginal loser. He needs to be shoving > 10% to call here profitably (10% including all pairs)
 
acky100

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Meh. Close but probably not. Need 43% probably have 40%. I probably spite call too cause **** you shorty but it's likely a marginal loser.

Its definitely close but if you give him a fishy range here for shoving here i think we have more than the 43% we need, i've just played around pokerstove very quickly and it looks like we're in pretty decent shape to call here.

Its obviously all very dependant but if his range is ATC then its a super snap call because we have like 54% equity or something against that range. Of course it isn't ATC but its going to be very wide.
 
acky100

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Yeah, this is a call. Even if he is only shoving with PP's and broadways and suited aces we have 48%.
 
WVHillbilly

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Yeah, this is a call. Even if he is only shoving with PP's and broadways and suited aces we have 48%.
I think giving him that wide a range is being stupidly optimistic since we've never seen him 4bet and he's 17/17 so far (yet you're giving him a 20% range for shoving here)!!!
 
acky100

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I dont think its that stupid, 20% is close to the 17% in his PFR, also after this hand it will probably go up to like 30%+. The amount of bb's he has left he cant do anyhing but 3bet or fold really, it doesn't look like he is 40bb shorty who tops up, it just looks like he is a retarded fish who's lost some money the previous hands.

Even if we give him a ridiculously tight range of any pair, AT+ then we have over 43%, and im pretty sure this guy is going to shove wider than that, in all the times ive seen a fish with this type of stack doing it, its generally much wider anyways.
 
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28 bb isn't THAT shortstack. If you get in habit of calling 28 bb shoves with 5s...gonna hurt on higher lvls.

You guys are much more familiar w .10/.25 so if you insist retard shove is likely n this spot...interesting
 
WVHillbilly

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Some shorties will certainly be shoving REALLY wide here and not calling would certainly be a mistake. Just not convinced this guy is shoving that wide just based on his stats to this point.
 
acky100

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28 bb isn't THAT shortstack. If you get in habit of calling 28 bb shoves with 5s...gonna hurt on higher lvls.

You guys are much more familiar w .10/.25 so if you insist retard shove is likely n this spot...interesting

28bb is very short-stack. Back in the day there used to be tons of 20bb shortstacks on pokerstars and they made their money by shoving super wide wide.

You cant say getting into the habit of calling 28bb shoves is going to hurt at higher levels, it's only going to hurt here if you like winning money because 99% of these weird stack sizes are doing this play with a range where the only option is to call, i dont really care if a very small amount of the time we make a bad call because even if you did make that rare bad call, it would still be super close.
 
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Lol fair enough.

I'm a 2/5 n 5/10 reg at casino..and calling 28 bb shove (140 or 280 respectively) w 5s would be awful in most cases. In my experience..especially when someone else already raised pre..its some type of TT or JJ hand that's spazzing out and wants to get alll the money in before overcards come out. Id be hoping for aj+. Imo (and I think this applies online too)...wait for a better spot..if its a retard, he will provide you w one shortly.
 
forsakenone

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easy fold, if he is a reg short stacker he is not shoving 55 in that spot.

I face players like him every day.
 
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I call, it can't be terrible. He's more likely to shove AQ than 66, for example.
 
acky100

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easy fold, if he is a reg short stacker he is not shoving 55 in that spot.

I face players like him every day.

Seriously, do some maths on it with reasonable assumptions. Where i play there are **** loads of 40bb shorties and even against them it's pretty close to calling with 55 against their 40bb range. Not calling here is losing money, you have a pocket pair and he has 28bb's and these guys dont wait until AA and KK to shove! You're also gonna face a lot of fish in similar situations like this who are just tilt shoving or waiting for some pretty cards. Ridiculously easy call giving the dead money too, wtf is wrong with everyone hating money.
 
Jurn8

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arran just post the maths on it to /thread
so many combos of AK/AQ/AJ/AT/KQ/QJ etc
 
acky100

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Just open pokerstove and give him a shoving range. see if we have 43%, we nearly always do unless you make a totally unrealistic range of like JJ,QQ,KK,AA.
 
Jurn8

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yeah exactly, thats what i was telling you to do lol Im at uni so cant do it atm
 
acky100

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Well if we give him a real tight range of AT+ and pocket pairs then we already have over 43%. GL convincing me the average short stacker isn't shoving any wider than that.
 
WVHillbilly

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Just open pokerstove and give him a shoving range. see if we have 43%, we nearly always do unless you make a totally unrealistic range of like JJ,QQ,KK,AA.
I'm fine with calling but this just isn't true. Again not sure why you assume this guy's going to be outside of his opening range here but w/e. I think we're likely in a very marginal spot and I call because maybe we eliminate a PoS shorty from the table which adds enough EV imo to make it a call.
 
acky100

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His opening range is atleast 17% if you're going by OP's 25 hand sample. We're not gonna make his range smaller than that, because after this hand in question his opening range will of jumped up to like 30/30 or something i think?

Either way AT+ and pocket pairs is probably a 10% range so i think i've justified how easy of a call this is, especially when most of these shorties with weird 28bb stacks are just busto fish shoving like 40% ranges until they go bust.
 
WVHillbilly

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You'd be right EXCEPT that hasn't been our experience with this particular shorty in 25 hands. We haven't seen him shove once so it's pretty unlikely he's shoving 40%.
 
JOEBOB69

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i think the range is way tighter arran.Prob something like AQ+TT+
 
acky100

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You'd be right EXCEPT that hasn't been our experience with this particular shorty in 25 hands. We haven't seen him shove once so it's pretty unlikely he's shoving 40%.

Joebob, thats ridiculous, seriously think your average 28bb stack shoves 5% range? no way.

And WV, i know its unreasonable to say this guy is shoving 40% but what % range would you give him? 25 hands is so small but one thing we can say is that he isnt just going to be shoving a 5% range. I'd say probably around 10-15% range would be a good start.

Its something stupid to argue about cause its only 28bb's but calling in this type of spot here is definitely +EV against your average random short guy.
 
JOEBOB69

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He should be squeezing/shoveing ATC here but he just seems like a retard waiting to catch a hand and shove imo.I mean if you wanted to you could drop his range down to AJo+,77+but that still doesn't help much.
Edit : reason for me assuming he is a fish waiting on a hand is....If he was " cough cough pro ss" he wouldn't be unknown because we def would have hands on him.
 
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