$25 NLHE 6-max: 4bet bluff is flatted, continue?

J

js520

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 28, 2012
Total posts
292
Chips
0
CO is a reg who folds to 3bets 70% and villain on the btn is a 24/19, 57% AFq with a 11% 3bet over 177 hands. So villain is obviously 3betting a very wide range here so I thought it was a good spot for a 4bet bluff. Good or just fold?

Was a bit surprised he called so when he does do we just give up? His fold to cbet was 25% but only 1/4 so too small of a sample. Bit of a shit board to continue as well as hes not going to fold 99+. So do we just give up or if u want to bet how much would u make it?

888 Poker - $0.30 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

UTG: $14.24
CO: $88.91
BTN: $30.00
SB: $34.61
Hero (BB): $50.73

SB posts SB $0.15, Hero posts BB $0.30

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.45) Hero has Jc As

fold, CO raises to $1.05, BTN raises to $3.60, fold, Hero raises to $7.50, fold, BTN calls $3.90

Flop: ($16.20, 2 players) 9d 7c 3c
Hero?
 
John A

John A

Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Total posts
6,492
Awards
3
Chips
37
Sizing is bad. Avoid 4-bet bluffing two players, especially OOP.

He's going to call with a much wider range pre-flop because of the sizing. So making it 7.90 and folding to a raise on the flop.
 
J

js520

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 28, 2012
Total posts
292
Chips
0
Thanks John, so bad idea altogether to 4bet but if u did do it how much would u have made it then?
 
forsakenone

forsakenone

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Total posts
1,385
Chips
0
4bet seems pretty small, you barely made it twice the 3bet, I say give up on this flop.

see you at the tables.
 
acky100

acky100

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 22, 2010
Total posts
3,523
Chips
0
Can't see anything wrong with the sizing whatsoever, what am i missing.
 
John A

John A

Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Total posts
6,492
Awards
3
Chips
37
Thanks John, so bad idea altogether to 4bet but if u did do it how much would u have made it then?

Yes. In general the btn is going to 3-bet a much wider range, but you're not really in a stack position to be able to make a play at this pot. If you're 4-betting looking to fold, you have to raise about the size you did, but then you're going to allow your opponent to flat a 4-bet in position against you. If you 4-bet a larger size in order to push your opponent off the 3-bet, you commit yourself to the pot with AJ. So it's just not a good spot in general. Not to mention, 4-bet bluffing into 2 people, instead of one is much riskier.
 
John A

John A

Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Total posts
6,492
Awards
3
Chips
37
Actually if you want to properly 3 and 4-bet bluff/iso then check out this video. Just because you see part of a possible play, make sure you have all of the elements to the play you're trying to make so you can stay as profitable as possible. One or two key things are off, then it's not a good play. :)

 
A

AlwaysPlanAhe

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 7, 2013
Total posts
155
Awards
1
Chips
2
Also check this video out. The guy who made it is Jack Wilcox who tragically died on holiday in Thailand around this time last year. He made a series of videos on how to crush SSNL and this one concentrates on 3/4 betting. It is absolutely brilliant.

 
Deco

Deco

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
May 7, 2009
Total posts
2,544
Chips
0
Sizing is bad. Avoid 4-bet bluffing two players, especially OOP.

You never cold 4bet John?
I like preflop and I'm happy enough with the sizing I make it 2.1-2.2x OOP usually and 1.9-2x IP. OP has picked both a great hand and a good 3better to do this with, I'd check the CO opening range as well as his F3B but this looks pretty good.

I usually c-bet around $3.50 in these spots with a very high frequency as we need folds so rarely yet it gets alot more respect than usual as it's all we need to setup stacks on the turn. Thing is this is a very bad flop as even AQ/AK are likely to flat us here in position so I'm fine with giving up as well.
 
John A

John A

Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Total posts
6,492
Awards
3
Chips
37
You never cold 4bet John?
I like preflop and I'm happy enough with the sizing I make it 2.1-2.2x OOP usually and 1.9-2x IP. OP has picked both a great hand and a good 3better to do this with, I'd check the CO opening range as well as his F3B but this looks pretty good.

I usually c-bet around $3.50 in these spots with a very high frequency as we need folds so rarely yet it gets alot more respect than usual as it's all we need to setup stacks on the turn. Thing is this is a very bad flop as even AQ/AK are likely to flat us here in position so I'm fine with giving up as well.

I don't think 4-bet bluffing OOP against two players at these stakes is going to profitable for most players.

The sizing is horrible, and that's why he's in the position he's in. Perhaps you can get away with it sometimes at these stakes IP, but OOP when players aren't 3-betting a ton, I don't think it's the best EV play imho.

Look at what you're saying about the hand, especially the last couple of sentences and you should find a few more reasons why I was saying it's bad to begin with.
 
hackmeplz

hackmeplz

Sleep Faster
Silver Level
Joined
May 1, 2012
Total posts
2,282
Awards
1
Chips
2
Preflop sizing is not horrible in the slightest. Especially at these stakes most people are going to be rediculously polarized in this spot and they're not going to call their bluffs or anything even when it's made this tiny.

That said because of the sizing by the other players, I think their ranges are stronger than stats indicate so not a huge fan of it. If it'd been like $0.90 -> $2.70 I'd like the play a lot more and my standard in that spot would be like $5.50 and unless you're perceived as a monkey I guarantee you it'd be a winning play.
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
I think the idea is that you should make it $6.50ish not $7.50. Far be it for me to be the nit but I really think that John's point is that bluffing in this spot at all is going to be bad because he is going to flat a ton because of stack size. This play would be a lot better if you each had 100 BBs because it's hard for him to continue with hands like TT/AQ. 200 BBs deep he's going to put you in a lot of bad spots and you're OOP with a hand that won't flop well vs. his range.
 
Top