$25 NLHE 6-max: 4-bet pot oop, hows my line

The Messiah

The Messiah

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF/3bet): 27/22/2.5/8.5

Villains a reg, and prob semi decent, but not that many hands to be sure(322)...
My stats are 26/21/9.5

Just thoughts on my line here and how it weighs up v his range as a whole, have of course my own thought process here but hoping someone else shares something similar, just so i know im not completely ****ing mad and out leveling myself countless times.

Clearing my deposit on Full tilt atm were i started back at 5nl at the start of the month, had a rough going with 5nl but crushed 10nl and now beating 25nl with my deposit nearly cleared.:) 40k hands thus far.


Full Tilt - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

CO: $37.01
BTN: $36.96
SB: $17.62
BB: $40.20
UTG: $25.25
Hero (MP): $28.28

SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero has 3:diamond: 3:heart:

fold, Hero raises to $0.75, CO raises to $2.75, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $6.25, CO calls $3.50

Flop: ($12.85, 2 players) 7:heart: T:heart: 8:heart:
Hero checks, CO checks

Turn: ($12.85, 2 players) 4:club:
Hero checks, CO bets $7.00, Hero raises to $22.03 and is all-in, CO calls $15.03

River: ($56.91, 2 players)

Edit: For those of you that saw result please keep it to yourself,ty
 
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A

AlwaysPlanAhe

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I'm not a 6max player but this line seems a wee bit questionable. Surely that flop hits his range insanely hard? C/r shipping turn is only folding out non-heart broadways?? Most everything else shrugs and calls.
 
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rhombus

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If he had any premium Hand AA, KK, QQ and prob AK, all shipped preflop that leave JJ 1010 or big suited connectors.

When he bets on the brick, he has nuts or nothing /weak draw you didnt have much fold equity. i would have folded :cool:
 
The Messiah

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I expect villain to flat my 4 bet in pos with his premiums more often than 5 bet shipping them.
But on this flop when checked to i expect him to bet all his overpairs close to 100% especially when either isnt a heart.
Doesnt matter if hes got the nuts on the flop alwaysplanahe, my plan was to c/f flop as his range crushes mine, but when he checks back it just seems awfully weird to me.
 
WVHillbilly

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Small pairs seem like horrible hands to 4bet bluff pre.

What value hands do you ever play this way post? Just looks likes spew all the way around to me.
 
youregoodmate

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Small pairs seem like horrible hands to 4bet bluff pre.

What value hands do you ever play this way post? Just looks likes spew all the way around to me.

Yep all the above.
 
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AlwaysPlanAhe

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when he checks back it just seems awfully weird to me.

I would imagine he's checking a medium strength hand that doesn't want to be check-raised on the flop but has enough value to bet the turn when you double check.

So we're looking for a hand that flats a 4bet preflop, checks behind on the wettest board ever then bets the turn and will fold to your shove?

99 with no heart? AK with no heart?

It's pretty slim pickings.
 
Deco

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Preflop fold ainec. If this player has a history of 3betting you from this spot 4bet KQ/Ax or something with good blockers.

Once he flats preflop he probably has AK/QQ. Although we can;t rule out KK+ or even an occasional bluff he;s decided to flat because he thinks he has odds (you;d be surprised how many regs are this stupid).

Ignoring the rare junk he may hold, once he checks back the flop I'm leaning more towards AK maybe an occasional QQh.

I bet the turn for $4, we take heartless AK hands off their equity and get value from AKh hands which will likely check brick rivers.

The checkraise I don't like because I think villain will check back most the time and be releasing alot of equity, I can't see the heartless AK hands betting here much at all so we're checkraising AhK and QQh for the most part which has us a little ahead or way behind. lol this is actually a thin value checkraise imo probably the best thing to once you have checked the turn weirdly enough but I'd much prefer a small bet than something this high variance.
 
The Messiah

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Small pairs seem like horrible hands to 4bet bluff pre.

What value hands do you ever play this way post? Just looks likes spew all the way around to me.

Well its obv villain dependant and on extremely wet boards like this I will take this line with overpairs a certain % of the time with either card being a heart..When i have the board crushed and when i check flop, imo you kinda have to check turn..You get all kinds of spew once you check the turn.

I would imagine he's checking a medium strength hand that doesn't want to be check-raised on the flop but has enough value to bet the turn when you double check.

So we're looking for a hand that flats a 4bet preflop, checks behind on the wettest board ever then bets the turn and will fold to your shove?

99 with no heart? AK with no heart?

It's pretty slim pickings.

From my experience i have decent FE even though my line seems like fos.
I also think he does this enough with A/K/Q of heart in whatever kinda combo to make it for thin value aswell. But when im behind im absolutely crushed with little to no equity.

Preflop fold ainec. If this player has a history of 3betting you from this spot 4bet KQ/Ax or something with good blockers.

Once he flats preflop he probably has AK/QQ. Although we can;t rule out KK+ or even an occasional bluff he;s decided to flat because he thinks he has odds (you;d be surprised how many regs are this stupid).

Ignoring the rare junk he may hold, once he checks back the flop I'm leaning more towards AK maybe an occasional QQh.

I bet the turn for $4, we take heartless AK hands off their equity and get value from AKh hands which will likely check brick rivers.

The checkraise I don't like because I think villain will check back most the time and be releasing alot of equity, I can't see the heartless AK hands betting here much at all so we're checkraising AhK and QQh for the most part which has us a little ahead or way behind. lol this is actually a thin value checkraise imo probably the best thing to once you have checked the turn weirdly enough but I'd much prefer a small bet than something this high variance.

I understand your reasoning behind betting the turn but as i said i feel we get a lot of spew when we double check.But yeah we prob even get calls from AK without even a heart so yeah cant be bad either way, as we have FE with the double check/jam, and he can play perfect against our 1/3 pot bet.
Yeah i just cant see it being that bad as some here are saying as it gets some spew/thin value bets from this villain. But think its very close.
 
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AlwaysPlanAhe

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I also think he does this enough with A/K/Q of heart in whatever kinda combo to make it for thin value aswell.

I think any sort of combo draw like AhKx, AxQh type hands are betting the flop. I could see AhAx and KhKx flatting the 4bet and checking the flop for deception maybe but it's more likely QQ/JJ without a heart and want to make sure there's no heart ace or king on the turn.

Seeing all the action I would guess villain has JJ/QQ no heart or 99 with heart.
 
The Messiah

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I think any sort of combo draw like AhKx, AxQh type hands are betting the flop. I could see AhAx and KhKx flatting the 4bet and checking the flop for deception maybe but it's more likely QQ/JJ without a heart and want to make sure there's no heart ace or king on the turn.

Seeing all the action I would guess villain has JJ/QQ no heart or 99 with heart.

Twud be pretty bad if villain didnt bet an overpair like JJ/QQ here on the flop.
But yeah could see AA/KK with the heart checking flop alright.
 
frozensprx

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I think the biggest problem with this hand is 4betting pre. The villian's check on the flop is pretty indicative that he has a heart in his hand. That could either be AK with a heart or QQ, KK, etc with one heart. Either way, I don't think the villian is ever folding any of those, and the only hands you beat are AK, which still has a chance of outdrawing you. Your hand is basically just a bluffcatcher and you are playing for your whole stack. If he had AK on that flop he would probably bet when you check...his check actually represents strength on a flop like that. Also if you were trying to get him to fold an overpair I have noticed that people folding overpairs is very rare at microstakes.
 
The Messiah

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I think the biggest problem with this hand is 4betting pre. The villian's check on the flop is pretty indicative that he has a heart in his hand. That could either be AK with a heart or QQ, KK, etc with one heart. Either way, I don't think the villian is ever folding any of those, and the only hands you beat are AK, which still has a chance of outdrawing you. Your hand is basically just a bluffcatcher and you are playing for your whole stack. If he had AK on that flop he would probably bet when you check...his check actually represents strength on a flop like that. Also if you were trying to get him to fold an overpair I have noticed that people folding overpairs is very rare at microstakes.

I think 4 betting is better than folding and of course calling, consid game flow and villain i think its ok, anyway not looking for advice pre tbh...

My hand isnt a bluff catcher when im jamming all in.
Also, dont play if your not prepared to play for stacks in any given hand imo.
His check doesnt represent strength unless hes got the board absolutely crushed,i.e KK/AA with one card being the heart obv.

lol, of course im not expecting villain to fold an overpair, that wasnt my intention of the all in, i assumed i had FE against his range and also decent equity too...
 
youregoodmate

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I think 4 betting is better than folding and of course calling, consid game flow and villain i think its ok, anyway not looking for advice pre tbh...

My hand isnt a bluff catcher when im jamming all in.
Also, dont play if your not prepared to play for stacks in any given hand imo.
His check doesnt represent strength unless hes got the board absolutely crushed,i.e KK/AA with one card being the heart obv.

lol, of course im not expecting villain to fold an overpair, that wasnt my intention of the all in, i assumed i had FE against his range and also decent equity too...

I dont think taking advice about pre is going to hurt.

I wouldnt say pre got you into this mess because I dont think 4 betting is bad. I prefer folding personally but against an 8% 3 bettor then 4 betting is never going to be horrible. Here comes the however... Small PPs are never going to be great to do this with because we never flop well (bar flopping a set) when he flats us with the top of his 3 betting range and we have no blockers to his nut hands.

As for the hand I think x/f'ing the flop is best, obv we couldnt do that so I would x/f the turn. We rep nothing by leading the turn and his range is so big we cant push him off anything by leading and not enough to BE by x/jamming.
 
The Messiah

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I dont think taking advice about pre is going to hurt.

I wouldnt say pre got you into this mess because I dont think 4 betting is bad. I prefer folding personally but against an 8% 3 bettor then 4 betting is never going to be horrible. Here comes the however... Small PPs are never going to be great to do this with because we never flop well (bar flopping a set) when he flats us with the top of his 3 betting range and we have no blockers to his nut hands.

As for the hand I think x/f'ing the flop is best, obv we couldnt do that so I would x/f the turn. We rep nothing by leading the turn and his range is so big we cant push him off anything by leading and not enough to BE by x/jamming.



Yes, agree with x/folding flop, that was my intention, my thought process changed when he bets turn though and convinced myself i have decent FE along with actually being ahead of his range, but not all that much
 
youregoodmate

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Yes, agree with x/folding flop, that was my intention, my thought process changed when he bets turn though and convinced myself i have decent FE along with actually being ahead of his range, but not all that much

Yeah I assumed thats what you were doing. Our range on the turn is so narrow, we represent absolutely nothing, any FD, overpair would bet. Nearly all of his range should be betting the flop, except AK no hearts, overpairs with hearts and flopped flushes. Not many combos that we beat and even those may check behind the turn thinking they are still good.
 
Deco

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Do you have any stats on what villain 3brts vs utg & HJ opens? Have you caught villain 3betting light here? Any reason you'd prefer 33 over ax or kq?

You've said you don't want advise on preflop but it's defo the spewiest part of the hand and everyone so far has mentioned it.
 
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Twud be pretty bad if villain didnt bet an overpair like JJ/QQ here on the flop.

3bet range is 9.5% so his most likely 4bet calling range is something like (TT+, AK). (TT/AA/KK) will most likely bet the flop, as does any hand with a heart. So by the time we get to the turn the villains most likely range based on the play so far is JJ/QQ/AK no heart. Then of those 3 hands the AK no heart probably isn't betting the turn meaning we're left with QQ/JJ no heart. You bet to get weaker hands to call or stronger hands to fold, how would QQ/JJ no hearts accomplish either of those v's your 4bet range (which is extremely polarised to premiums/bluffs) on this flop. Is there some history between you guys or some table dynamic you haven't mentioned?

Anyhoo I have something to add about your play. 4b wasn't that bad as villain has quite a high 3b% so you're getting a decent amount of folds. Your choice of hands to 4b isn't great but I've been guilty of 4b KJ, AT because it felt right at the time so I don't have a huge problem with it.

Checking the flop wasn't that bad either because we're crushed against his 4bet calling range. Maybe betting to continue the story that we have QQ+ or AK with heart is better but if we're called then we've just burnt $X with what looks like 2 outs.

Check/raising the turn by itself isn't that bad either because you can get hands like AK no hearts and his "i'm gonna take a stab at this with my 5h5x" to fold.

Each of the 3 plays by itself has merit...but as an entire story it is AWFUL! I understand that you want to defend your play because the C/r has potential FE or thin value but I'm sorry, you played this hand about as badly as anyone can play a small pair imo.

You rep nuts/bluff with 4bet preflop. So your check on the flop makes it INCREDIBLY unlikely that you have the nuts part of that 4bet range. Your check on the turn also compounds this fact further to the extent that when you checkraise...the only hand you're credibly repping is exactly AhKh.

EDIT - Sorry if that last part came across as a bit brutal. Here's a funny video for you.

 
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acky100

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Do you have any stats on what villain 3brts vs utg & HJ opens? Have you caught villain 3betting light here? Any reason you'd prefer 33 over ax or kq?

You've said you don't want advise on preflop but it's defo the spewiest part of the hand and everyone so far has mentioned it.

yeh, can't really debate anything past that as can't think of a reason to end up here pretty much ever
 
The Messiah

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@ deco; Mehh maybe preflop is worse than i thought then, but yeah just didnt think it was that bad vs this villain.I have as i said roughly 322 hands on villain but this session he was 3betting 11% and I was 14% over 60 hands or something so the table dynamic between the 2 of us was fairly high, we were both playing many pots together as our 2 LAG styles clashed, with him having an advantage being in pos.
My intention behind the 4 bet was to call off a 5 bet jam, not knowing his 5 bet jam range, but due to dable dynamics,mehh i was calling.


@alwaysplanahe; you kinda contradict yourself in regards to betting/checking the flop, and only semi agree with the narrow range you have assigned to our range, i think its less important when its hard for villain to have anything too, ok he obv has a stronger range than me but because of flop texture it really baffles me how any vilain doesnt bet this flop with an overpair.His check on the flop looks extremely strong so if villain wants to appear weak then he should be betting,right, maybe im out leveling myself again but mehhh,it hapens.
If your including 10s in his 4 betcalling range then dont you kinda have to include AJ+.
I also think 5 bet shipping appears weaker, at least it would get lighter calls from me anyway so agree that his range is nutty but again i feel he flats fairly light because he has to adjust to my adjustment of him, right, he seems decentish so i expect this to happen quite quickly.
I dont know, i really like this hand regardless and all the discussion it has brought up, its made me aware that it isnt as standard as i first thought, ok, its never standard but for lags like myself we generally have a high variance game with a lot of marginal spots, this being at the top of the list.
 
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AlwaysPlanAhe

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@ deco; Mehh maybe preflop is worse than i thought then, but yeah just didnt think it was that bad vs this villain.I have as i said roughly 322 hands on villain but this session he was 3betting 11% and I was 14% over 60 hands or something so the table dynamic between the 2 of us was fairly high, we were both playing many pots together as our 2 LAG styles clashed, with him having an advantage being in pos.
My intention behind the 4 bet was to call off a 5 bet jam, not knowing his 5 bet jam range, but due to dable dynamics,mehh i was calling.


@alwaysplanahe; you kinda contradict yourself in regards to betting/checking the flop, and only semi agree with the narrow range you have assigned to our range, i think its less important when its hard for villain to have anything too, ok he obv has a stronger range than me but because of flop texture it really baffles me how any vilain doesnt bet this flop with an overpair.His check on the flop looks extremely strong so if villain wants to appear weak then he should be betting,right, maybe im out leveling myself again but mehhh,it hapens.
If your including 10s in his 4 betcalling range then dont you kinda have to include AJ+.
I also think 5 bet shipping appears weaker, at least it would get lighter calls from me anyway so agree that his range is nutty but again i feel he flats fairly light because he has to adjust to my adjustment of him, right, he seems decentish so i expect this to happen quite quickly.
I dont know, i really like this hand regardless and all the discussion it has brought up, its made me aware that it isnt as standard as i first thought, ok, its never standard but for lags like myself we generally have a high variance game with a lot of marginal spots, this being at the top of the list.

Fair enough, so what did villain end up holding?
 
The Messiah

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Mehh why not, happy with the response..

AhQx
 
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