$25 NLHE 6-max: 25nl 6max, Hero call turn shove?

OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 29/29/4

I've got my own thoughts on this hand, but just wanted others opinions. :rolleyes: Stats are over 46 hands, his open size also indicated to me he was reg-ish.

Note: I played every street wrong. Maybe not the flop.

poker stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 2081070
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

SB: $29.54
Hero (BB): $28.91
UTG: $25.00
MP: $32.00
CO: $28.13
BTN: $39.81

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BB with A :heart: T :spade:
2 folds, CO raises to $0.62, 1 fold, SB calls $0.52, Hero raises to $2.50, CO calls $1.88, 1 fold

Flop: ($5.62) 5 :diamond: 8 :club: A :diamond: (2 players)
Hero bets $3, CO calls $3

Turn: ($11.62) K :club: (2 players)
Hero bets $5.50, CO raises to $22.63 all in, Hero calls $17.13

River: ($56.88) 8 :heart: (2 players - 1 is all in)
 
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The Messiah

The Messiah

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If I'm sq A10 here I'm making it more pre being oop.
I like to think I'm fairly balanced especially in 3 bet pots so wouldn't c-bet this flop as its lol dry and we either have him crushed were he might not put money in in more that 1 street or he's got us crushed.
So yeah would bet bet turn and river for value if he checks back flop.
As played I bet turn a lot more, but its always a bet fold IMO as villain was more Likly to set mine it being 3way pre.because your bet size on turn was so small villains a lot more Likly to just flat FDs as he's been given a great price hence it being very hard for villain to have semi bluffs in his range.
 
frozensprx

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yeah I think this is a pretty easy fold to the turn shove, as the only hand you are ahead of is a flush draw, and it isn't very likely that he would be chasing a backdoor flush on a flop like this unless he had the A of clubs, in which case he has more equity than you and you should fold. And also I think I would just check this flop, because your hand isn't super strong and you don't want to build a huge pot with a hand like AT. In all honesty I think his shove actually indicates a set, some players start to panic when possible flushes start coming in and a ship like this on the turn could mean that he had a set on the flop and then shipped turn to protect his hand.
 
Deco

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I'm happy to 3bet this pre. If we only 3bet J9s and the likes we'd be 3betting a very thin range.

I check/call the flop.
As played (don't mind the c-bet at all and I'd do it against someone I know will make my life hard once I check) we have an easy check/fold.

Underpairs and weaker aces (If villain has any which is why I check/call) will check down. AQ/AJ maybe a weirdly played AK will bet.
Villain is unlikely to have floated an Axx flop in a 3bet pot, sure once in a blue moon it will happen but not often.
Flush draws are likely few and generally far between in a squeezed pot. Even if villain is flatting really wide (which we have no evidence to suggest) all Ax flush draws are ruled out and Kx draws likely to check back.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

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yeah i'm having a hard time picking types of hands to squeeze with in spots like these. the Acky in me says that we should probably change our ranges vs player types, but in general what hands should we be using?

I think the cbet is standard, betting the turn is lol bad since betting the turn makes him fold the weaker draws/air part of his range and only continue with better. I already understood all this before posting..

I also think regs float more in these spots than you give credit for, but thats pretty meh.

-

as played, turn? I don't think his line makes sense for any value hands except weirdly played AK/KK's.. A5s/A8s/55 though not as much, 88 makes the most sense here, but I think he can have a lot of draws with the BDFD coming in like KQcc JTdd etc.

umm, RIO?

and anyone have anything to say about the 2.5x from the CO too?
 
youregoodmate

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Im not a fan of the 3 bet. We're in a tough spot if we get called, lose big pots often and win small ones rarely. Not worth stealing tbh, I would rather flat.
 
Deco

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Ye that isn't just the acky in you its your common sense no doubt. The factors you should look to are:

*Villains opening range from the position he's raised from
*His F3B or F3B from that position if you have enough hands.
*Villains 4bet range (if you have enough hands or simply have been 4bet loads)
*Last but not least metagame

Having said that you need to have a default range to begin with. Recnetly I've been trying to 3bet more so I've been creating ranges on pokerstove, screen shotting them then checking with other players if they'd go with the same hands. Against someone with a F3B of 70%+ you can make a range with as wide as 20% of hands until (if at all) they adjust.

Squeezing against a steal attempt in general I'm going to have a really wide range. More so vs a button open than a CO open.

We generally prefer hands with nice implied odds but the problem is when we're closing the action and have a discount on our price to enter the pot alot of these hands are more than strong enough to flat so we have to resort to alot of ATo sorta hands to make up the numbers.

This isn't my range just something I've whipped up quickly (dunno if I want to hand my exact range over to acky) :p. But it should give you an idea of what to do with stove and you can discuess with other people what % you should be aiming for vs certain player type, whether to go for 45s or J8s and what adjustments to make given different stats (ie High opening range but very high 4betting % >> flat more, 3bet bluff less, 3bet for value more).

1add173624cc2f2c83dedcbe7551a6f4.png

Look to find hands too strong to fold but just about too weak to call.
 
ChuckTs

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What proram is that Deco?

We generally prefer hands with nice implied odds but the problem is when we're closing the action and have a discount on our price to enter the pot alot of these hands are more than strong enough to flat so we have to resort to alot of ATo sorta hands to make up the numbers.

A little unclear with your wording - are you saying we need to include hands as weak as ATo to reach any type of a reasonable 3bet % to optimally exploit these high F3B players? If so I don't see why.

A range for me if the opener folds %65+ or %70+ to 3bets, and the flatter is like a full stacked unknown or is half decent (read: likely not to be a huge station):

JgQoLyW.png


That's 116 bluff combos and 62 nut combos, meaning %65 of which are 'air'. A good player will exploit us by 4betting a lot of the time (typical 2.5x sizing exploits those who fold ~%60), but a good player isn't folding to 3bets this often, and we're not widening our range that wide against someone that observant. Nowhere near close to exploitable against your average small/micro stakes player, and that's still a %13.4 range which is going to net us plenty of value from a wide opener. If we want to expand our 3betting range because villain folds so much, just add more bluffs - guys who fold %75+ to 3bets over good samples are almost never going to be exploiting a 3bet range that's too unbalanced.
 
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N

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I dont know its a hard spot as with hand removal ak becomes a less possible holding and a set maybe would raise the flop. But i cant find a reason for him to shove over ur possible nuts. Whats making him do that? Maybe he thought u couldnt have ak urself or is there a scenario that he called with k8dd(but he would think maybe its ak still)? Sick i know but hes loose and aggressive. Im not calling here cause i dont like paying donks off but it is a very interesting hand. We shouldnt overestimate our opponents so just fold and wait for more info on him.
 
Deco

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What proram is that Deco?



A little unclear with your wording - are you saying we need to include hands as weak as ATo to reach any type of a reasonable 3bet % to optimally exploit these high F3B players? If so I don't see why.

A range for me if the opener folds %65+ or %70+ to 3bets, and the flatter is like a full stacked unknown or is half decent (read: likely not to be a huge station):

JgQoLyW.png


That's 116 bluff combos and 62 nut combos, meaning %65 of which are 'air'. A good player will exploit us by 4betting a lot of the time (typical 2.5x sizing exploits those who fold ~%60), but a good player isn't folding to 3bets this often, and we're not widening our range that wide against someone that observant. Nowhere near close to exploitable against your average small/micro stakes player, and that's still a %13.4 range which is going to net us plenty of value from a wide opener. If we want to expand our 3betting range because villain folds so much, just add more bluffs - guys who fold %75+ to 3bets over good samples are almost never going to be exploiting a 3bet range that's too unbalanced.

Equilab its free from pokerstrategy its basically pokerstove with lots of extra features. Only used it then as gyazo seems to select all hands when I try to screengrab stove.

Ye that range I posted is approximately what I use to 3bet unknown regs and regs who fold lots and have yet to adjust. Its exploitable but generally regs with only 50 odd hands on me won't be playing back at me unless ive some uber high 3bet already. That and nearly all 100nl regs fold too much.

Your bluff range is much smaller than mine but ye I guess it's possible to not need offsuit hands I dunno if I can see t7s being better than aj though. The big cards may risk being dominated but their blockers and ability to make pairs can outweigh the suitedness of some of our more junky suited hands.

We'll have to compare ranges sometime. I've been playing around with this stuff all week as I've found just winging it is causing me to 3bet a much tighter range than I want. Stuff like a bvb 3bet range vs a 50% open I'll pretty much run out of suited cards to 3bet altogether :p
 
acky100

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Are we talking about our ranges for this specific squeeze spot or 3betting in general, either way i think deco is using too many unsuited big hands that we can still call profitably with some and that ChuckTs is 3betting too many strong hands like K9s which i think can be pretty easily called profitably, so i knocked up this is like 2 mins so its just rough but mines an amalgamation of both, less offsuit broadways (still gonna be 3betting some for sure but opponent specific).

Got a feeling that all suited aces might be profitable to just call in which case i'd stop 3betting them and add more suited junk instead, not 100% so i do 3bet them occasionally and call ocassionally too.
 

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Deco

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Would have to be for this spot specifically. If it was a button open I'd be going way wider. I may be a little too wide here.

I should probably make a seperate thread on this interesting to see people's ranges and there's so many different scenarios. I've been bombarding my coach with 3bet ranges lately. Mostly wide ones for high F3Bs as there's plenty of retards opening 50%+ from the SB and I'm kinda stuck as to wtf I can 3bet that I wouldn't already flat which isn't complete trash.

Main difference I'm seeing is uze stack AQ/TT in this spot w/o history. I only tend to throw AQ/TT/99 and a couple of bluffs in my range once I've 3bet the guy loads, although meh who doesn't 4bet bluff these days. Reckon it's a big mistake not to?
 
ChuckTs

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As a standard it's light. With history on someone who can 4bet bluff, I have to start adding AQ and pairs as far down as necessary in order to maintain some sort of balance to my 3bet range with all the bluffs in there.
 
B

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Everyone wants to know about 3-bet ranges and stuff but I feel the almost-equally important part of the equation is what kind of hands you want in your flatting ranges and what your 4-bet/5-bet bluff ranges will be.
 
hackmeplz

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To people who want to fold: do you think he's shoving AQ/AJ here? There are probably a lot of spots in this hand where you could take a different action some of the time, but I don't mind the line (including calling the shove) in the slightest.
 
B

baudib1

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yeah I think calling is pretty good, too. I think you will see some sort of draw that picked up more outs on the turn a lot -- hard to tell what he is really trying to rep -- he doesn't have AK or KK+ and probably not a set on the flop so it's pretty WTF polarized, don't mind calling and if he has AJ or something it's pretty noteworthy (I'd avoid playing back at him OOP ever).
 
youregoodmate

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yeah I think calling is pretty good, too. I think you will see some sort of draw that picked up more outs on the turn a lot -- hard to tell what he is really trying to rep -- he doesn't have AK or KK+ and probably not a set on the flop so it's pretty WTF polarized, don't mind calling and if he has AJ or something it's pretty noteworthy (I'd avoid playing back at him OOP ever).

I dont see why AK is out of his range. I would be playing AK the exact same there.
 
Deco

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To people who want to fold: do you think he's shoving AQ/AJ here? There are probably a lot of spots in this hand where you could take a different action some of the time, but I don't mind the line (including calling the shove) in the slightest.

I wouldn't rule out AJ/AQ when there are two flush draws on the board. That and relativly unknown regs can do weird stuff like flat AK here especially if the SB is a fish (in which case it wouldn't be weird).

What hands do you think villain does this with? I guess Acxc makes sense although I think most villains would flat this. As much as the case for villain being polarized has merit I'm having a hard time seeing what bluffs he has and can't see a 25NL villain turning a made hand in to a bluff.
 
hackmeplz

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most people are getting AK in pre
 
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baudib1

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No one flats AK from LP pre and on the flop vs. 3-bettors in the blinds.
 
youregoodmate

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No one flats AK from LP pre and on the flop vs. 3-bettors in the blinds.

Its actually quite common from regs at the lower limits. By flatting they keep in a ton of hands they dominate.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

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^ dunno if he does it enough with the SB in though, yeah he's IP but obv 4bet gii is standard for regs who generally dislike multiway pots with AA/KK/AK.
 
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