$25 NLHE 6-max: $25 NLHE 6-max: bluffing a 4-card straight on the river

villain's a reg playing 21/16,
Called the flop with TPTK, on the turn I'm pretty certain he has an overpair, but I thought I'd call him and see if he isn't double barreling.
then the 6 comes on the river which makes a 4card straight, and he checks.
I have him on QQ-AA , do you think most regs will fold to a shove here?

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

UTG ($25.35)
Hero (MP) ($29.98)
Button ($25)
SB ($55.65)
BB ($25)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 10 , K
1 fold, Hero bets $0.75, 1 fold, SB raises to $2.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $1.75

Flop: ($5.25) 4 , 10 , 5 (2 players)
SB bets $3.10, Hero calls $3.10

Turn: ($11.45) 3 (2 players)
SB bets $6.10, Hero calls $6.10

River: ($23.65) 6 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $18.28 (All-In),

Fold pre-flop. Fold turn. bluffing river is fine but I would be more concerned about your pre-flop and turn calls rather than your bluff on river. Also if he is a thinking player expect to get called sometimes here as why would you ever have a 2 or a 7 here?

Fold pre all day everyday.

You can't fold the turn because this is going to be a barreling ace that turned a draw quite often. River you really need to check, because 88-99 and worse tens never play this way, and those are really the only hands that can call you.

Same thought as above about prf, dont like calling KT to a 3bet with out some stats/read to justify it.

Not a huge fan of the river bluff just because what possible hand combos do you have that call a double barrel and include a 2 or a 7?
A funky played 77, a slowplayed on the turn A2 and 67s? Non which villain expects a lot of combos of in a 3bet pot.
I like bluffing boards like this but we need to be representing something and this just looks like a really strange line so we are not likely to get credit a lot.
+ if your read is actually correct and he has a overpair, trying to get people to fold overpairs at 25nl is just never gonna be very ev+

Lol, didn't read the title, so I thought we were value betting this river. No one is ever folding, especially anything better. Just check.

Well about the pre-flop thing, I love calling 3-bets in position with marginal hands in these games, even against regs, as they're all very exploitable post-flop (this might be a leak).

Now the river bluff, I personally thought players at 25NL aren't that much thinkers, so most of them are probably very scared of that river card, i think its really really close, but It worked this time.

BvBrMTW said:

Well about the pre-flop thing, I love calling 3-bets in position with marginal hands in these games, even against regs, as they're all very exploitable post-flop (this might be a leak).

Now the river bluff, I personally thought players at 25NL aren't that much thinkers, so most of them are probably very scared of that river card, i think its really really close, but It worked this time.

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2 things.

1) Playing big pots with marginal hands and no initiative against the better players at the table is CERTAINLY a leak.

2) How do you know it worked this time? Villain could easily be folding a hand you beat. You are judging how a move worked completely wrong.

c9h13no3 said:

2 things.

1) Playing big pots with marginal hands and no initiative against the better players at the table is CERTAINLY a leak.

2) How do you know it worked this time? Villain could easily be folding a hand you beat. You are judging how a move worked completely wrong.

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1 most of the "better players" are still TERRIBLE at these stakes, it's easy to get away when you're behind, and if you flop a big hand you get paid off a lot of the time, also, if you 3-bet a standard 3x raise, you're not going to play a "big" pot, it's 8% of your stack.

2 I'm pretty sure he had better than a pair of 10's here,

So you started this thread to argue with everyone that your right and that your logic is flawless?

I did not say at any point that my logic is 'flawless' , I'm just saying my point of view.

So:

-You're confident that your river bluff will be effective because you're 'pretty sure' villain had a better hand

But

-You still called turn, presumably not because you thought you had the best hand but because you thought you could bluff him off AT/JJ+ on enough rivers to make calling profitable?

The logic doesn't add up and basically it comes down to what c9 is saying. You have less than a PSB left and have to a) get a good card to bluff (clubs, 6, maybe a 2, though he has a ton of Ax in his range that won't be folding), b) have villain check on those cards, and c) have villain make the mistake of folding a better hand a significant portion of hte time when he does get to the river this way to show a profit by shoving. There is of course a d): improve to the best hand, but that's rare and discounted since QQ isn't always c/c for stacks on a Kc river for instance.

You are calling preflop with the worst hand type possible, even vs a player type who's likely to be making tons of mistakes postflop, and your postflop reasoning is suggesting a gap in logic that we're trying to help you with. Calling preflop is not going to be profitable long-term.

Thanks for your answer,

Ye I assume I should call less 3-bets in position pre-flop, and on the turn call, maybe a bad one, but I didn't really know where I was on the turn yet, felt like an overpair, but could've been a Tx kind of hand.

Yeah this is definitely not a good spot for a bluff at a low straight. You were 3bet pre and called with a hand that is easily dominated by a 3betting range for a 25nl player. Players at 25nl typically don't 3bet bluff too frequently. Second of all, he is never folding an overpair on that board. I personally would never fold an overpair given pre flop action. So basically the only hand he would lead flop and turn and check river with would be like AK of clubs, and every other possible 3betting hand has you beat. In the event he does have AK of clubs then the correct play wouldn't be to ship river because he would only call you with the hands that beat you, rather you could just check it and take down the pot. I think folding KT pre would be the best line to take.

You say you like calling 3 bets IP because villains are exploitable... Well the larger the pot PF the less skill is involved Postflop due to Pot:stack ratio's. So unless the villains spaz out in 3 bet pots then it makes more sense just to wait for a better spot and play smaller pots with marginal hands against these 'bad regs'.

Yoshimiii said:

Well the larger the pot PF the less skill is involved Postflop due to Pot:stack ratio's. '.

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I didn't consider that, good point.
I've stopped calling so many 3-bets IP, have to say it hasn't really payed off yet, but variance is a bitch.

BvBrMTW said:

I didn't consider that, good point.
I've stopped calling so many 3-bets IP, have to say it hasn't really payed off yet, but variance is a bitch.

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A good rule that I go by is calling only 9/9+, K/Qs+ A/Js+ IP against regs. This works well and I sometimes 4 bet bluff A/10, hands with blockers against habitual 3 betters.

you fold hands like 77/88? I think my heart can't take that, honestly.
I play really loose tho, guess I should call a bit wider then?

BvBrMTW said:

you fold hands like 77/88? I think my heart can't take that, honestly.
I play really loose tho, guess I should call a bit wider then?

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Well I look at the 3 bet stats of villain but if they are an unkown then yes I would fold 7/7 and 8/8, chances are he is either 3 betting a pocket pair greater than 7/7 or 8/8 in which case you are dominated or two high cards and when he cbets the flop you have a tough decision anyway as over cards will likely come.