$25 NLHE 6-max: 25 NL 6-Max: Turning Bluff Catcher into Bluff? (Line Check)

rileyl

rileyl

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Total posts
477
Chips
0
$25 NL HE 6-max: 25 NL 6-Max: Turning Bluff Catcher into Bluff? (Line Check)

Ok so only like 45 hands on villain but he has been really aggressive, barrelling a decent amount and seems to be somewhat competent. I'm calling flop and turn to bluff-catch but when the river card comes and he bets I decide to turn my hand into a bluff. Does it look ok?

poker stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 591739
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter
BB: $24.60
UTG: $7.95
MP: $45.05
CO: $52.50
Hero (BTN): $25.00
SB: $55.35

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BTN with 9 9
2 folds, CO raises to $0.75, Hero calls $0.75, 2 folds

Flop: ($1.85) 5 6 A (2 players)
CO bets $1.25, Hero calls $1.25

Turn: ($4.35) J (2 players)
CO bets $3.50, Hero calls $3.50

River: ($11.35) T (2 players)
CO bets $6, Hero raises to $19.50 all in
 
M

Marginal

Junior Member
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 28, 2009
Total posts
10,426
Awards
3
Chips
2
I guess you rep a flush but I just fold the turn.
 
rileyl

rileyl

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Total posts
477
Chips
0
3-bet pre, as played fold turn.

Meh. Don't really like 3-Betting pre here but style preference or whatever, not really relevant. Also why would you 3-Bet 99 here? Are you stacking it? If not, then 3-Betting is really bad. (Note: I would stack 99 here pre if history with villain but with no real solid reads, I think 3-Betting is quite stupid)

Folding the turn is definitely a possibility, probably close as I know he still has lots of air in his range when he bets the turn there.
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
3-betting an aggressive CO from the BTN for me is pretty standard almost regardless of what our hand is.

Are we stacking pre? Depends on villain's 4-bet tendencies. If we just call are we stacking on a 7-high flop? If we're only playing for set value we can fold the flop.
 
Last edited:
rileyl

rileyl

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Total posts
477
Chips
0
3-betting an aggressive CO from the BTN for me is pretty standard almost regardless of what our hand is.

My question is why? It is almost certainly more profitable to call with a hand like 99 and play postflop unless you have an aversion to playing after the flop? You can find way better hands to 3-Bet imo.

Edit: We have no reads lol!!! Therefore no 4-Bet tendencies which don't become relevant until a ton of hands!!! Against this villain we probably just bluff catch most of the way but it depends mostly on board texture.
 
dsvw56

dsvw56

I'm a Taurus
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 7, 2008
Total posts
1,716
Chips
0
Reasons to 3-bet

1. Villains range is wide, therefore we can't play for set value.
2. Villains range is wide, a 3-bet wins the pot a ton of the time.
3. Villain is aggressive, and has a wide range therefore it's going to be difficult to find profitable boards to play bluff catcher.
4. We have position, so we win basically every time he calls and doesn't flop big.
5. Getting squeezed here sucks big time.
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
We have the button and we're going to make more money than CO, so stuff more money in preflop.

The good thing is he is going to fold the majority of the time and that's fine, with 99 getting his air to fold isn't a bad thing because a lot of it has good equity against us anyway.

Raise-folding is perfectly acceptable the rare times he has a monster.

By flatting you're inviting the blinds in or begging them to squeeze you with 88 or AJ.

By 3-betting we can actually represent a hand on a board like this (OMG he haz da AK) instead of calling down and bluffing a pretty good river for villain's range.
 
rileyl

rileyl

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Total posts
477
Chips
0
Reasons to 3-bet

1. Villains range is wide, therefore we can't play for set value.
2. Villains range is wide, a 3-bet wins the pot a ton of the time.
3. Villain is aggressive, and has a wide range therefore it's going to be difficult to find profitable boards to play bluff catcher.
4. We have position, so we win basically every time he calls and doesn't flop big.
5. Getting squeezed here sucks big time.

Ok first, not planning on playing for set value. Second, that's fine we can 3-Bet OTHER hands that don't have as much value....Basically, it's a style thing...don't really think it's a big difference between flatting or 3-Betting.

As a side note: Your guys reasons for 3-Betting basically just stem from the fact that you aren't comfortable playing post-flop against an aggressive player. I think you may be missing some opportunities and sort of taking the easy way out.
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
I can live without the opportunities to shove 99 on an AJTxx 3-flush board. If you want to explain those opportunities, maybe you can provide some detailed history and double-/triple-barreling stats on villain here.
 
slycbnew

slycbnew

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 8, 2008
Total posts
2,876
Chips
0
What are your stats on this table?

How much is Villain's river betsize factoring into your decision?
 
U

Ubercroz

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Total posts
653
Chips
0
I think flatting makes some sense here, 99 is fairly strong hand its most likely to be the best hand on the flop- I don't see any reason to complain about not 3betting here since you end up folding smaller pocket pairs that may pay you off a little on the flop and over cards that may miss but pay to float you one.
So preflop is the way it is and ought not be a huge sticking point.
But I guess if you're not folding the turn then this is really the card you're hoping to get (that's not a 9 of course). A shove should fold everything thats not a flush from someone who's not a retard.
My problem would be assuming the guy you're playing is not a retard- Like you said no hands on the guy so you don't know how much he hates being bluffed and how likely he is to call a big bet like this with TP.

So in summary: preflop is ok, flop is ok, turn is a little shaky, river is hoping hes not a retard (a big hope, at least from what I've seen recently)
 
KardKlub

KardKlub

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 11, 2008
Total posts
527
Chips
0
flatting 99 in position imo is the correct play, why do you want to raise and loose out on post flop play against a wide opener.

Save the 3 bet for A4o etc

Calling the flop is ok, but when he bets the turn im probably folding, if he is competent as you say he's not double barrelling bluff without and A when you call the flop, as he should no it's not a good position to be in without one.

It's just makes more sense to find a better oportunity as he will turn up with the goods more times than none with this board texture.
 
rileyl

rileyl

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Total posts
477
Chips
0
I can live without the opportunities to shove 99 on an AJTxx 3-flush board. If you want to explain those opportunities, maybe you can provide some detailed history and double-/triple-barreling stats on villain here.

Lol you just don't listen....not enough hands!!! I just know he is barrelling fairly often and basically the best scare card comes on the river.

What are your stats on this table?

How much is Villain's river betsize factoring into your decision?

Not really sure as to my stats on the specific table. Normally, I play 25/21 or something like that but given the limited hands on the table those numbers could be all over.

Bet-sizing is a huge factor! Basically I think he bets more with a flush, and I can easily rep a flush here so I shove. If he bet something like $9 on the river it's an easy fold.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
Awards
1
Chips
1
I just know he is barrelling fairly often and basically the best scare card comes on the river.
What would you guesstimate his bet/folding range to be on the river?
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
it's good to know you 3-bet monkeys have like 95% junk and no value in your 3-betting range.
 
rileyl

rileyl

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Total posts
477
Chips
0
I'm just going to go over my reasoning behind the shove on the river and then feel free to comment agree/disagree:

1. When villain barrels the turn his range is flush draws, straight draws, AK, AQ, his monsters and of course his random air. (Which I thought there was decent amount of, but I don't argue that folding the turn might be better.)

2. When villain bets relatively small on the river once the flush (and possible straight though unlikely) hits, I tend to take this as leaving himself room to fold if raised. This means I tend to eliminate the flushes and straights from his range and weigh it more towards hands that he wants to try to get thinner value from. It's really his bet-sizing and my remaining stack size that makes me decide to raise.

3. I'm obviously repping a small range here, but I think it is very believable and the stack sizes worked out perfectly imo to try it.

So really the question is whether you disagree or agree with my logic that his river betsize is basically screaming "I'm going to fold if raised"?
 
rileyl

rileyl

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Total posts
477
Chips
0
it's good to know you 3-bet monkeys have like 95% junk and no value in your 3-betting range.

Lol you really have nothing to contribute. As to my 3-Bet range, it's not set in stone, it's dynamic. It's called ADJUSTING and of course I'm going to 3-Bet alot of "junk" if people are folding an absurd amount to 3-Bets. IF someone is calling 3-Bets liberally I'm going to start 3-Betting your precious 99 but until I have that information I'm going to assume that villain is probably like most and folds way too much to 3-Bets.

Is it exploitable? .... YES! Will anyone exploit me? .... NO!
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
I don't know, you're asking for a line check on a hand where every street is questionable vs. a villain with very little stats/history. it seems like each decision on each street is based on "he might have air" with very little to back that up -- I'm not 3-betting with the best hand pre because it folds his air, I'm calling the flop cuz he has a lot of air, I'm calling the turn because maybe he still has air, I'm shoving the river cuz, well, maybe he 3-barreled with air and I can make him fold when he's getting 3-1.

I like the river shove better than any other street but I think you need deeper effective stacks, he'll make a crying call here with a lot of hands that will surprise you IMO and he'll have the flush himself a decent % of the time.
 
rileyl

rileyl

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Total posts
477
Chips
0
I don't know, you're asking for a line check on a hand where every street is questionable vs. a villain with very little stats/history. it seems like each decision on each street is based on "he might have air" with very little to back that up -- I'm not 3-betting with the best hand pre because it folds his air, I'm calling the flop cuz he has a lot of air, I'm calling the turn because maybe he still has air, I'm shoving the river cuz, well, maybe he 3-barreled with air and I can make him fold when he's getting 3-1.

I like the river shove better than any other street but I think you need deeper effective stacks, he'll make a crying call here with a lot of hands that will surprise you IMO.

How is every street questionable?

Preflop-----> Standard
Flop--------> Standard
Turn-------> Ok Questionable
River-------> Questionable

And my reasoning on the river isn't trying to get him to fold his air, that should be obvious but I guess not...It's getting him to fold all the hands that he's going for thin value against me. Once he bets river, I think he very rarely has air (he still has some but not much) but I think he folds most of the hands that he makes that size of river bet.
 
U

Ubercroz

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Total posts
653
Chips
0
I would rather 3bet 99 OOP (like the blinds or something) than IP. But seems like it's a lot of argument for a marginal 3-bet. I guess you would be right either way but there's no reason to be upset when someone doesn't 3bet a marginal hand.

It doesn't seem like the line is all that questionable save for the turn, which would have been a pretty solid fold.

The river is probably a fine shove, its not like he's getting 5-1 on it and 3-1 can fold a lot of hands that beat you. Obviously it gets calls from a lot of hands too but what else could he be repping throughout the hand?
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
OK, what's our reasoning for 3-betting 99 OOP rather than IP, and how does being OOP vs. CO affect our 3-bet ranges?

How would you play if you have 22? AK? AQ? QQ? AA?
 
U

Ubercroz

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Total posts
653
Chips
0
I would 3bet 22-77 IP, not likely to be strong post flop unless a set hits.

I would 3bet QQ+ I want to build a big pot with a hand that want a big pot on the flop so that I'm hard to bluff.

I would 3bet AK to get some fold equity with a hand that may not connect (IP an OOP)

I would flat AQ because I don't want to fold to a 4 bet shove- except OOP I do 3bet because who wants to play AQ OOP?

Its really those 88-JJ hands that are marginal strength that seem like good hands to flat IP and 3bet OOP. same probably with AQ
 
KardKlub

KardKlub

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 11, 2008
Total posts
527
Chips
0
I'm just going to go over my reasoning behind the shove on the river and then feel free to comment agree/disagree:

1. When villain barrels the turn his range is flush draws, straight draws, AK, AQ, his monsters and of course his random air. (Which I thought there was decent amount of, but I don't argue that folding the turn might be better.)

2. When villain bets relatively small on the river once the flush (and possible straight though unlikely) hits, I tend to take this as leaving himself room to fold if raised. This means I tend to eliminate the flushes and straights from his range and weigh it more towards hands that he wants to try to get thinner value from. It's really his bet-sizing and my remaining stack size that makes me decide to raise.

3. I'm obviously repping a small range here, but I think it is very believable and the stack sizes worked out perfectly imo to try it.

So really the question is whether you disagree or agree with my logic that his river betsize is basically screaming "I'm going to fold if raised"?

I can see your thinking, and you look extremely strong when you c/r the river.

half pot bets on the river when draws are made is expliotable imo just like you did. Its like a spot where you just cant be bluffing (but we are heheehee) he has to have the nuts to call this if he's a thinking player.
 
Top