25 NL, what do you do with KK here?

Don't have the numbers handy but villain has been fairly TAG and this is definitely out of the ordinary for them.

pokerstars Game #16690039780: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2008/04/13 - 01:10:12 (ET)
Table 'Peneleos V' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: xxxxyxxxx ($25 in chips)
Seat 2: TigerDP ($27.35 in chips)
Seat 3: Montevideo ($19.05 in chips)
Seat 4: Brasil2007 ($43.95 in chips)
Seat 5: zepps_1-0 ($22.55 in chips)
Seat 6: Leech24 ($6.05 in chips)
Seat 7: phihodiep ($40.35 in chips)
Seat 8: Tygran37 ($26.90 in chips)
Seat 9: DBLEE ($32.60 in chips)
zepps_1-0: posts small blind $0.10
Leech24: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Tygran37 [Ks Kd]
phihodiep: calls $0.25
Tygran37: raises $1 to $1.25
DBLEE: folds
xxxxyxxxx: folds
TigerDP: folds
Montevideo: raises $1.75 to $3
Brasil2007: folds
zepps_1-0: folds
Leech24: folds
phihodiep: folds
phihodiep is sitting out
Tygran37: calls $1.75
*** FLOP *** [Jd Qd 7h]
Tygran37: bets $5
Montevideo: raises $5 to $10
Tygran37: ???

A bit of a nasty flop. Why not 4 bet preflop with KK, especially OOP?

Minraise, I'm calling and seeing what happens on the turn. He could have AQ and is annoyed that you bet into him after his 3 bet or is testing to see if you're trying to push him off by donking into him. JQ is unlikely given his 3-bet preflop, but QQ/JJ/AA are the scary ones.


I call the raise and curse the fact that I didn't 4-bet preflop and avoid this situation ....

I'd 4 bet this guy preflop to about $9, and call a shove. With Aces and Kings you wanna get as much money in preflop as you can to limit thier implied odds and make your decisions much easier on the flop.

4-bet pf! I think you're playing scared money with your recent swing, Tygran. As played it's a terrible spot and really the only hands I see you beating are like AK and AQ as JJ/QQ/AA all have you crushed. I dunno, I don't want to say fold this, but the key point here is pf - 4-bet it every time!

Also take a look at the 4-bet sizing article I wrote, should help: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/balance-bet-sizing-3-bet-4-bet-pots-long-108169/

ie we should 4-bet small (2.5x what he puts in) to induce action from worse hands and to provide balance for when we want to 4-bet bluff.

It sounds like you've been in a tough spot lately and I'd be glad to hook up for a sweat session to watch you play if you want.

ChuckTs said:

but the key point here is pf - 4-bet it every time!

Click to expand...

i disagree. i mean, it's nice if you want to fold out QQ/JJ, mostly get action from AA, not really my thing though. if you're never 4betting light, which at FR nobody ever does, then flatcalling 3bets from EP with KK and QQ should actually be your more common play, regardless of position. i need to have reason to think the guy will follow along with a fair chunk of worse in order to 4bet it in this position

in late position and/or with a loose image it's often a different thing

imo

"Every time" is wrong, just spewed that out, but I do think at 25nl we can just jam pf without worry. A lot of tags just can't fold JJ/TT/AK/AQs.

You do have a good point though, esp considering we're raising in EP.

ChuckTs said:

ie we should 4-bet small (2.5x what he puts in) to induce action from worse hands and to provide balance for when we want to 4-bet bluff.

Click to expand...

we're going to 4-bet bluff at 25nl FR?

Well the main part of that was inducing action, but yes I 4-bet bluff in LP if I feel someone's 3-betting me too light too often. Never in an EP vs a 3-bet though.

4 bet bluffing is like 121st level thinking in my book .

combuboom said:

i disagree. i mean, it's nice if you want to fold out QQ/JJ, mostly get action from AA, not really my thing though. if you're never 4betting light, which at FR nobody ever does, then flatcalling 3bets from EP with KK and QQ should actually be your more common play, regardless of position. i need to have reason to think the guy will follow along with a fair chunk of worse in order to 4bet it in this position

in late position and/or with a loose image it's often a different thing

imo

Click to expand...

See I am frustrated and I am probably playing a little bit scared but I have lost more buy ins than I care to count to AA with KK in this situation. This player as I said has been quite tight. And I've seen her play AK a few times and she never played it this way.

So I just flat called because honestly the only hands that make a ton of sense are AA, KK (unlikely) and QQ. I really don't think from this person I'm gonna see AK or AQ and since I have the K of diamonds the only AK that makes much sense is AK of diamonds which isn't there.

So..with that flop even if we extend possible range to include JJ I'm crushed by everything, aren't I ?

The only people I seem to be able to get all in at all preflop with KK are the ones who have AA.

Also feels like the only people I can get all in with AA lately are the ones with KK or the ones with a $5 stack or less.

I would also like to add fwiw that against majority of players I will 4 bet that even in EP. we obviously aren't folding it pre.

It's just that this time I was going to be shocked if I didn't see either AA/KK/QQ from villain based off her past play which I had seen a fair amount of.

BTW...I did fold to the raise and they showed the aces