25$NL 6-max: Small Pots, Thoughts on C-betting Less

c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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I've been trying to c-bet less recently just because 25$ NL is a lot looser than 2$ and 10$ NL. Just throwing some situations out there where I used to c-bet, but now I'm holding back. I just feel like even the biggest idiots know what c-betting is, and so everyone is looking to exploit this.

The rest of your nerds who play 6 max, what's your c-bet %? I'm running at 72% so far.

Here's a couple examples:

Seat 5 is the button
Seat 2: blondetwins ( $33.76 USD ) 55/0/48%
Seat 3: Hero ( $29.29 USD )
Irishone76 posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
AnTman_69 posts big blind [$0.25 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ :ad4: :jd4: ]
blondetwins calls [$0.25 USD]
Hero raises [$1.35 USD]
NvrOnTilt33 folds
Irishone76 folds
AnTman_69 folds
blondetwins calls [$1.10 USD]
Potsize = $3.05
** Dealing Flop ** [ :3h4: :5h4: :9d4: ]
blondetwins checks
Hero checks
** Dealing Turn ** [ :3h4: :5h4: :9d4: :2d4: ]
blondetwins bets [$0.55 USD]
Hero raises [$4.00 USD]


Seat 3 is the button
Seat 2: HOLENONE7 ( $30.47 USD ) 22/7/44%
Seat 3: Hero ( $34.82 USD )
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ :9d4: :kc4: ]
mount everett calls [$0.25 USD]
go4redoak folds
HOLENONE7 calls [$0.25 USD]
Hero raises [$1.45 USD]
aggiemike13 folds
Lowball Paul folds
mount everett folds
HOLENONE7 calls [$1.20 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ :4c4: :7d4: :ks4: ]
HOLENONE7 checks
Hero checks
** Dealing Turn ** [ :4c4: :7d4: :ks4: :10h4: ]
HOLENONE7 bets [$3.50 USD]
Hero calls [$3.50 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ :4c4: :7d4: :ks4: :10h4: :6c4: ]
HOLENONE7 bets [$10.50 USD]
Hero calls [$10.50 USD]



Thoughts?
 
B

bw07507

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I like the turn raise on the first hand, makes your hand look like a big hand as usually the only thing that checks flop and raises turn is a set here and u also have a lot of outs if villain calls. Also, his small bet looks so weak and is almost never a made hand. 2nd hand is pretty standard i guess against this type of villain. I think calling the river is marginal, but I kind of suck at 6max lately so Im not too sure on that.
 
Richyl2008

Richyl2008

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I recently switched from full ring to 6max exclusively in the past month or so, to work on my postflop game ,only have about 10,000 hands but my cbet % is about 75% at the moment and has been a big part of my overall winrate. With cbetting there's a lot of things you should consider, position, stacksizes, opponent tendancies, board texture, yadda yadda.

Hand one seems fine to me, a player that loose will probably peel with a huge range on that flop, 2 overs, draws, any pair,etc. so I think cbetting against that guy on this flop is a waste. Turn raise is fine Imo.

2nd hand I also like checking behind on the flop. If your ahead at this point it's unlikely he is going to catch up, and you can possibly induce action from worse hands on the turn. It also gives you a better chance to get to showdown for the price that your hand is worth (a small pot), which is something I always try to think about when cbetting, what size pot I want to play with this hand and what actions I take will most likely get me the pot size that my hand warrants. I like the turn call, but I would fold the river as a default, without reads or history.
 
Jagsti

Jagsti

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I actually thought I was around +70%, just checked and it seems like I'm only at 65% for 6max. Hmmm, I'm definitely gonna have to interrogate my stats more closely this month. Plug some long standing leaks I think.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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%78, up a few %s in my more recent venture in 6max...

What were you referring to with the 'small pots'?

I don't get what the actual question is...are we looking at two HA hands here or debating cbet %s in 6max games?

Regarding stats, I think fold to flop/turn bet and wtsd in conjunction with vpip are much more important when deciding whether or not to cbet (and follow up with double/triple barrels). Generally if villain's FFB is higher than %60, I'm cbetting my whole range as it shows immediate profit, plus adds obvious metagame bonuses.

But ya, I really think it should be looked at as a multi-street game though too. I mean if someone calls TONS preflop and TONS on the flop, but folds TONS on the turn, I'm happily pumping double barrels into him all day, he's just a gold mine. To a less experienced player (not necessarily saying that about you obv, c9), he may see that a player calls pf and on the flop lots, and assume he's never going to be able to push him out.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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I think you played the flops fine in both cases. I disagree with the turn raise in hand #1, though, because you're getting the worst of two worlds:

1. When he folds, you often had the best hand already and shut down the possibility of getting an extra bet out of him on the river when you hit one of your 15 outs, and
2. If he has a monster, he may just price you out of seeing a river. This in itself is not that awful (since you lose relatively little in finding out that he has a monster), except that you give up a great big chunk of implied odds when that happens. I.e., if he has 9-9, you may have to fold to a re-raise and that costs you both the money that you put in now, and the money you would have won when you drew out to the nuts.

#2 is a rare occurrence, but it's rarity is countered by its big payoff.

I think calling the river in hand 2 is a little thin, too, but when we take the line of checking the flop, the hand sort of plays itself. I wouldn't call a river overbet, though, but I do expect to be ahead around a third of the time.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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As for c-betting frequencies, c-betting less is the wrong adjustments to loose opponents. It's the correct adjustment to aggressive opponents. A loose opponent's range preflop is much wider than yours, so on average you'll have a better hand than he does. Therefore, betting flops with the better part of your range is good.

When your hand is in the bottom part of your range (say, 98s that doesn't hit) then betting flops is good because your fold equity - which may not materialize until the turn - is worth a lot.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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I don't get what the actual question is...are we looking at two HA hands here or debating cbet %s in 6max games?
Both?

And yeah, I use the fold to c-bet stat a lot. I recently read a guide for 6-max that said we should be c-betting 85% of the time, but I think that's probably way too much for today's games. Finding some good spots to not c-bet = monies in my book.

As far as the call in the 2nd hand, he insta-bet, and did it for pot. Usually fast, button pushing bets are bluffs at these stakes. Typed out bets that take a little more time tend to be more for value.
 
G

GrantGreen

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It depends for me on whether I'm in position, and what my opponent plays like.
If I'm OOP and against a player that calls most of my cbets on the flop, then I have to double barrel to get him to fold. In that case, I'll bet more like 60% on the flop, so my turn barrel can be proportionately smaller.

In position, you have more options (take the free card, check behind on the river w/ showdown value etc). But I really try to control potsize OOP with a medium strength hand.

As for % of cbet, I just finished playing 8K hands of $25 NL 6max on Stars, and I think it was about 85%. And my W$WSF was 44%.
 
blankoblanco

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i don't really like the turn raise in hand 1, although you have so much equity that it's hard for it to be a big mistake (it's surely +EV but given his bet, calling is +EV by default and i think it has a greater expectation)

basically only hands in the deck you're representing are sets. that's pretty, well, narrow. however, this is my smallest complaint because most people can't hand-read anyway

but the main problem for me is that his small bet looks typical of a weak draw trying to see the river, which means a) your AJ high has showdown value alone, but most importanly b) folding him off of a weaker diamond draw would be a disaster since that's like a 1 in 6 chance of winning a stack on the river
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Very helpful guys, especially the part about not raising the draw on 4th street.

I gotta get better at playing small pots. I had a +3 buy in session last night, and I didn't win a pot larger than 40 big blinds the whole night (most were even smaller).
 
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