200nl: top and bottom pair vs. raise

blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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literally my first hand of the session. possibly worth noting though is that, within one of the last couple hands while i was waiting to post, i saw villain in question make a near potsized bluff all-in with a busted draw and get tankcalled by top pair

do you lead flop or check? what are we doing now and what's the general plan for the hand?

full tilt poker Game #9471525842: Table Verbena Creek - $1/$2 - No Limit Hold'em - 12:26:31 ET - 2008/12/13
Seat 1: BLR25 ($109.90)
Seat 2: lluckyqueen ($38)
Seat 3: ScotE2hotie ($90.55)
Seat 4: rafami ($77)
Seat 5: MarcoTheBEAST ($235)
Seat 6: combuboom ($200)
Seat 7: hirmulisko ($200)
Seat 8: theboz1938 ($80)
Seat 9: grimmerlori ($186.30)
MarcoTheBEAST posts the small blind of $1
combuboom posts the big blind of $2
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to combuboom [2s Td]
grimmerlori calls $2
BLR25 folds
lluckyqueen folds
ScotE2hotie calls $2
rafami calls $2
MarcoTheBEAST calls $1
combuboom checks
*** FLOP *** [Ts 9s 2c]
MarcoTheBEAST checks
combuboom bets $7
grimmerlori raises to $22
ScotE2hotie folds
rafami has 15 seconds left to act
rafami folds
MarcoTheBEAST folds
combuboom...
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

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I love leading the flop here.

Once raised, it's tempting to call and check turn to induce bluffs. But i think flop is too draw heavy for that. Too many cards can kill your action on turn. So I 3bet to $56 and call a shove.
 
NineLions

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I love leading the flop here.

Once raised, it's tempting to call and check turn to induce bluffs. But i think flop is too draw heavy for that. Too many cards can kill your action on turn. So I 3bet to $56 and call a shove.

^^^ given earlier hand that you saw go down
 
vanquish

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usually if a guy recently bluffed in a big pot he's not bluffing this time, but you have enough equity against his jamming range to raise/shove profitably here i think
 
blankoblanco

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guess my concern was i'm leading out in a 5way pot which looks fairly strong, he raises with 2 to act on a board where he's obv never got air. is there a risk i mostly just get all-in in a slightly ahead/way behind situation?
 
BelgoSuisse

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guess my concern was i'm leading out in a 5way pot which looks fairly strong, he raises with 2 to act on a board where he's obv never got air. is there a risk i mostly just get all-in in a slightly ahead/way behind situation?

i think a player who's capable of bluffing pot-sized on the river is gonna raise all his straight or flush draws here, and that's a large amount of hands in his range against which you're 66/33, which is more than slightly ahead.
 
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switch0723

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I think i much prefer the line of calling here and check/rasing safe turns. Since if we get it in here, were either crushed or agaisnt hands like q,js. On scary turns, such as a spade, c/c or c/f are the best plays dependant on bet sizing imo

EDIT: nvm i much much much prefer the line of calling here and then leading out on safe turns, since we can massively polarize villains range based on his turn actions since its unlikely he will get it in with draws on the turn. Also then c/c wet turns
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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I think i much prefer the line of calling here and check/rasing safe turns. Since if we get it in here, were either crushed or agaisnt hands like q,js. On scary turns, such as a spade, c/c or c/f are the best plays dependant on bet sizing imo

EDIT: nvm i much much much prefer the line of calling here and then leading out on safe turns, since we can massively polarize villains range based on his turn actions since its unlikely he will get it in with draws on the turn. Also then c/c wet turns

alright, we got somebody who wants to just call, which is actually what i did, which means there's another street to play :eek:

i don't feel like i can assume he's auto-raising all his draws here just because he bluffed a busted draw before when he had no other chance to win the pot. does it make it more likely that he's capable of playing a draw aggressively? probably a bit, but the situations are just completely different, he's got 3 people behind on a board that connects with quite a few hands in a limped pot

of course the alternative of continuing the hand OOP when we dislike a lot of turns isn't incredibly desirable either, so i can totally get the merits of 3betting. i like to live on the wild side or something

Dealt to combuboom [2s Td]
grimmerlori calls $2
BLR25 folds
lluckyqueen folds
ScotE2hotie calls $2
rafami calls $2
MarcoTheBEAST calls $1
combuboom checks
*** FLOP *** [Ts 9s 2c]
MarcoTheBEAST checks
combuboom bets $7
grimmerlori raises to $22
ScotE2hotie folds
rafami has 15 seconds left to act
rafami folds
MarcoTheBEAST folds
combuboom calls $15
*** TURN *** [Ts 9s 2c] [8d]
combuboom...

now what's the plan? lead/get-it-in, lead/fold, check/raise, check/call, open-fold for meta?
 
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switch0723

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open shove for meta > open fold

i say lead, re eval here, no real reason, it just seems the least icky of the options
 
blankoblanco

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bump. c'mon guys, there's another street to play ! would like a few more opinions
 
ChuckTs

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I think your thought process is perfect combu. If we ship the flop, it's basically ba/wb. Calling disguises our hand a lot, which is good, but it makes turns like this really hard to play well since we haven't defined his hand range much. He could still have a semibluff, could have a monster from the flop, have improved to a straight, could be on a naked ten or something else like that thinking they're charging draws...so really, I'm lost on he turn :p I think the best play is to ch-f to be honest.

Another thing to note is that he limped utg. I guess if he's loose enough then we can include suited connectors in his range, but usually this is either a small pair trying to see a cheap flop, or a big pair trying to trap. That furthers the argument to continue in the hand though.

I'm lost. I think ch-folding is fine, ch-calling is ok too. As is leading. lol.
 
zachvac

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I think I like the bet/fold line on this turn. check-calling is interesting because although I expect him to bet any draws he's not really stacking with a worse hand. So although I normally hate betting "for info", I think this may be one good spot. Especially with the recent read, we really have no idea on his range. If we check-call turn do we also call a blank river? Is he just a pretty aggressive guy who'll bluff most missed draws or will he know we saw it and be more inclined to check back missed draws? Basically I think check-calling gives the free card to draws and kinda forces us to pay off made hands when blank river hits.

Next step is the river if we bet and he flats. I think at that point his range is pretty much draws and TP/overpair type hands. But he limped preflop, so I really don't see JJ+ in his range. If a spade hits I think check-fold is fine on river but if blank falls I'm torn between value betting or check-calling. If he had raised preflop I check-call all day because not only can he bluff missed draws he could thin value bet a worse hand (TP/overpair mainly). But since he limped preflop his range is a lot of draws and sets. I think I like just check-calling still because we don't really get much value when we bet and I don't like folding 2 pair, especially after draws hit :p. But also because if he flats turn after raising flop I think a set is unlikely.
 
ChuckTs

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I pretty much expect all worse hands to slow down on the river (especially on bad cards), most better ones to bet for value, and some better ones to check on scare cards (like 9T on a 7s river or whatever). Basically if I either ch-c the turn or donk it, I'm check-folding the river on bad cards and ch-calling sometimes on good ones.

This board is just getting so bad for a limped pot raised on the flop. I'm really not happy with my hand anymore.
 
zachvac

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I pretty much expect all worse hands to slow down on the river (especially on bad cards), most better ones to bet for value, and some better ones to check on scare cards (like 9T on a 7s river or whatever). Basically if I either ch-c the turn or donk it, I'm check-folding the river on bad cards and ch-calling sometimes on good ones.

This board is just getting so bad for a limped pot raised on the flop. I'm really not happy with my hand anymore.

Basically agree with this. Also note that in my post it should read "draws miss" before the :p smilie. Obviously if draws hit I have no problem folding because I doubt he turns any hand into a bluff and he doesn't value-bet top pair type hands anymore.
 
blankoblanco

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i think i like zach's bet/fold idea and if i get into this situation again, i'll probably do that. i was a little concerned that he could go nuts with an overpair or a combo draw and make me fold the best hand, but it's probably not likely enough to be a huge problem

i felt a little bit lost and just went with the default option of checking, hoping that i'd be able to make a good decision based on what he bet

Dealt to combuboom [2s Td]
grimmerlori calls $2
BLR25 folds
lluckyqueen folds
ScotE2hotie calls $2
rafami calls $2
MarcoTheBEAST calls $1
combuboom checks
*** FLOP *** [Ts 9s 2c]
MarcoTheBEAST checks
combuboom bets $7
grimmerlori raises to $22
ScotE2hotie folds
rafami has 15 seconds left to act
rafami folds
MarcoTheBEAST folds
combuboom calls $15
*** TURN *** [Ts 9s 2c] [8d]
combuboom checks
grimmerlori bets $26
combuboom...

he bets half the pot which is sort of weird. i'd guess sets are pretty much always betting more on this board, right? he could be milking me with a straight or doing a value-bet/see-where-i'm-at kind of thing with something i beat. is calling pretty much the only option at this point?
 
zachvac

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eww that's so ugly. Problem is this could be a draw making a cheap semibluff, TP trying to keep pot smallish but charge draws, sets trying to keep pot smallish but charge draws, and possibly a made straight but I would expect made straight to bet more here. I think this is probably a fold here just because we have little information and this basically turns our hand semi-face up and he can play much better against us on the river than we can. Has to be close though in terms of ev, so wouldn't hate a call, but then I think we have to call a river bet on a blank too.
 
zachvac

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Actually I change my mind. I was thinking that TP/overpairs make up more of the draw protection range but then I remembered the preflop action. Honestly this is probably sets more often than TP/overpair, I think this is a fold on the turn.
 
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baudib1

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Can't villain have teh AA much of the time here?
 
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