[200NL] Shove turn with AKo UI

F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
Awards
1
Chips
1
I'm experimenting with adding a few more bluffs to my turn and river play, both because I think they're immediately profitable but I'm of course also hoping for some meta game advantages in terms of getting my bigger hands paid off.

Here's one example. Villain in this hand is a typical tag reg, and when he bets the turn, I felt like he turned his hand face up (88-JJ) and that I had some serious fold equity if I shoved, coupled with a 10 out draw most of the time. You like?

party poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($203)
Hero (Button) ($200)
BB ($208.35)
CO ($183)
UTG ($398.30)
SB ($208)

Preflop: Hero is Button with [Kc], [Ad]
1 fold, MP raises $6, CO calls $6, Hero raises $31, 3 folds, CO calls $25

Flop: ($71) [3c], [3d], [4c] (2 players)
CO checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($71) [2h] (2 players)
CO bets $24, Hero raises to $169 (All-In)
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Total posts
9,218
Chips
0
I don't disagree with your range for villain's hand, and i understand the urge to punish such a meager turn bet from him, but what on earth are you representing here that would make any sense? Any hand that's ahead of 88-JJ on turn cbets the flop, doesn't it?
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
Awards
1
Chips
1
A really weirdly played AA or KK. Once I'm called, I kinda have to make a note on that player that he's seen me do this for future usage, but the first time I think I'm in the clear.
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Total posts
9,218
Chips
0
A really weirdly played AA or KK.

I agree with the "really weirdly played" part. :D

This is really a case where you'll never balance your range with a monster, so villain should make the hero call because you're bluffing 99% of the time (1% for missclicks, imo). But it's also true he probably won't dare to make that hero call the first time you pull off this play. He'll just take a note.
 
joos

joos

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 7, 2008
Total posts
272
Chips
0
I think its hard to represent any strength once you check back flop. you are betting flop with any pocket pair and he is calling with any pocket pair. All we have in this hand is gutshot and two overs which still might b some good quitiy. I would just flat this bet and play it or fold. he only folds overs but when you call he will just check overs and you can take it down with A high when checked to
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
I don't play at this level but I don't find this line to be credible. If this is a reg you play with a lot it might be a good leveling exercise. It's not his hand but yours that is face up -- bluffing the gutshot is obvious. This is a 3-bet pot and no one will give you credit for having 44 or a 3.

I will sometimes check AA in first position on a flop like this to let an opponent with overs catch something or bluff. No one would think that AA will check behind in position. I'd snap call this with 88+.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
Awards
1
Chips
1
As a way of balancing this, I'm occasionally checking back AA/KK on a flop like this. It encourages bluffs, at the expense of perhaps a little value. Versus a real hand (let's say that I have AA and KK flatted preflop to trap me) all the money's going in on the turn or river anyway, and if villain has some air in his range - JTs, that sorta hand - then I think checking back the flop is definitely +EV. We need him to bluff the medium suited connectors that missed (or perhaps even hit on the turn), and it may also make a hand like 88 think of itself as the immortal nuts, which is always fun.
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
At the levels I play, most pp will peel this flop anyway and TT+ will probably reraise.
 
Irexes

Irexes

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Total posts
7,016
Chips
0
It could be AA or KK you are representing (QQ in there as well). Would be odd but not impossible. I think it's a good balance move and if called and witnessed by enough regs you are getting it back in metagame. I've added a lot more of this lately and I'm getting AQ to stack preflop on occassion from players who would fold to any 3bet previously.

The 3bet could also be a squeeze with low pair preflop (or indeed not much more than air) which does put 44 and 22 just about into the range. Against the right villains it's certainly in mine. Whether they would be aware of this is another matter.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
Awards
1
Chips
1
At the levels I play, most pp will peel this flop anyway and TT+ will probably reraise.

Exactly. Most small PP will peel this flop anyway. So I'm missing immediate value with AA versus these hands, but against the same PPs, I'm burning money by betting with AK. And yes, as Rex says, the metagame advantage is huge. A bluff like that gets noted.

The important point is that it's balanced somewhat. I can't do this with only unimproved overs, because that's going to work exactly once. I mix it up by doing it with AA and KK in a similar situation, and I'm home free.

What's the option? Betting AK on the flop and hope that it will look like AA? We've already established that no PPs will fold to a c-bet, so checking back AK is often going to be the best play. And since I'll be wanting to do that occasionally, I need to do it with KK and AA as well - which I do.

The pot size is integral here, by the way.
 
A

AbstraktPB

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Nov 13, 2008
Total posts
8
Chips
0
I don't like it, you're really not repping anything. Even if your range is more balanced than it may seem because you can check back AA and KK, villain doesnt know that, so you should only make this play with the top of your range.
Bottom line most regs are calling this turn shove BECAUSE
1. They know their hand is face up and they don't want to be exploited
2. They know our range is polarized and their turn underbet is to induce
3. You cannot credibly rep any kind of range that beats theirs
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
Awards
1
Chips
1
So am I to understand that this is the best possible line to take with AA, then?
 
A

ArminDeluxe

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 11, 2008
Total posts
32
Chips
0
i would fold because high card ass and street draw isn´t enough he should bluff on the flop a continuation bet or something like that
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
So am I to understand that this is the best possible line to take with AA, then?

But we established that 88+ will play on anyway. Make a $25 bet here with AA and let them play back at you. I like checking in first position with AA, especially if I reraised preflop.

If you want to let high cards catch something on the turn, ok. I do think this requires you to stack off occasionally when opponents show all signs that you're beat because you've under-repped your hand on the flop. (Stacking off with AA in a three-bet pot is usually never wrong).
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
Awards
1
Chips
1
My question was aimed at AbstraktPB. Since no one will fold anything when I shove AA, clearly checking back the flop and shoving the turn is by far the best play with that hand.

And I'm not saying that sarcastically. I actually think this play makes a buttload of sense with AA in a 3-bet pot on a rag flop, because what's their range? Usually AK, AQ and medium PPs. Sometimes KK trying to trap, sometimes a smaller PP that probably should have folded preflop but thinks they had set mining odds. A free card costs very little in terms of equity on a flop like this, and we're apparently not repping anything when we check beck flop and shove turn.

So why wouldn't we?

Edited to add:

I do think this requires you to stack off occasionally when opponents show all signs that you're beat because you've under-repped your hand on the flop. (Stacking off with AA in a three-bet pot is usually never wrong).
We definitely need to stack off if we get played back at on the turn after checking the flop. But like you said, we don't really have much choice in the matter after the preflop 3-bet.

I also wanted to say that I really don't like checking AA out of position on a flop like this, because we have nothing to balance it with. I'd never check AK, because I really want them to fold small pairs and I'd rather keep momentum up and make a bluff on the turn rather than check/folding. I mean, let's say I get called by 77 after betting AK OOP on this flop, and the turn is a J, and I shove. Is a decent player going to call with 77?

Checking AA OOP after 3-betting preflop on this board is not a sign of weakness to me. I prefer to always bet OOP.
 
A

AbstraktPB

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Nov 13, 2008
Total posts
8
Chips
0
It certainly is not a bad line to take with AA against the right opponent. Paulson hero is in position this hand, not sure if you're confused
 
A

AbstraktPB

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Nov 13, 2008
Total posts
8
Chips
0
Cbetting the flop in pos is probably the best play w/ AA imo, villain doesnt always donk the turn, so checking back is maybe getting too FPS. If you think alot of their range is decent overpairs then cbetting this flop is best.
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
I think checking AA OOP oop is a better move in tournament play -- when having a big stack usually means like 40 BBs and not 100. I like it especially if you 3-bet from the blinds vs. a LP stealer.
 
Stu_Ungar

Stu_Ungar

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
May 14, 2008
Total posts
6,236
Chips
0
f paulson - why did you shove on the turn and not just call, with the intention of shoving on the river?

Would the shove on the river not look stronger than a shove on the turn?
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
So am I to understand that this is the best possible line to take with AA, then?


Thanks for you idea. I'm always up for trying new things. This dry, uncoordinated flop seemed a good time to do this, especially since I'm shortstacked.
Full Tilt, $75 Buy-in (50/100 blinds) NL Hold'em Sit'N'Go, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

BB: 4,392 (43.9 bb)
UTG+2: 1,485 (14.9 bb)
MP1: 980 (9.8 bb)
Hero (MP2): 1,489 (14.9 bb)
MP3: 2,010 (20.1 bb)
CO: 595 (6 bb)
BTN: 2,065 (20.7 bb)
SB: 3,479 (34.8 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is MP2 with A
club.gif
A
spade.gif

2 folds, Hero raises to 254, 3 folds, SB calls 204, BB folds

Flop: (608) 8
diamond.gif
3
club.gif
J
heart.gif
(2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: (608) K
diamond.gif
(2 players)
SB bets 3,225 and is all-in, Hero calls 1,235 and is all-in

River: (3,078) 6
heart.gif
(2 players, 2 are all-in)

Results: 3,078 pot
SB showed K
heart.gif
Q
club.gif
(a pair of Kings) and lost (-1,489 net)
Hero showed A
club.gif
A
spade.gif
(a pair of Aces) and won 3,078 (1,589 net)
 
vanquish

vanquish

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Total posts
12,000
Chips
0
i came up with vanquish theorem #3:
when you give villains a chance to make sick hero calls, they'll make them.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
Awards
1
Chips
1
f paulson - why did you shove on the turn and not just call, with the intention of shoving on the river?

Would the shove on the river not look stronger than a shove on the turn?

It would, but what I want more than anything is some fold equity versus medium PPs, and if he bets the river after I call the turn, I'm not sure I have enough left in the effective stack to make him fold the river to a raise.
 
Top