200NL: KK in 3bet pot, how's my line?

villain is 22/13 over a few orbits and seems like a reasonably good player. i've been tight, like 15/12 or something

slightly non-standard turn line i think, how do you like it vs his range?

***** Hand History for Game 7801363643 *****
$200 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, August 25, 09:29:11 ET 2008
Table Diamond Head (real money)
Seat 5 is the button
Seat 1: tomhop ( $189.00 )
Seat 2: francredible ( $200.00 )
Seat 3: pompan ( $307.85 )
Seat 4: XMIII ( $46.35 )
Seat 5: woedz ( $209.75 )
Seat 6: Chad9292 ( $154.80 )
Seat 7: mariojr ( $223.65 )
Seat 8: combuboom ( $204.45 )
Seat 9: DarkAce777 ( $217.95 )
Chad9292 posts small blind [$1].
combuboom posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to combuboom [ Kc Kh ]
DarkAce777 folds
tomhop raises to $7
pompan folds
XMIII folds
woedz folds
Chad9292 folds
combuboom raises to $24
tomhop calls $17
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3s, 4s, 8c ]
combuboom bets $36
tomhop calls $36
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8h ]
combuboom checks
tomhop bets $62
combuboom raises to $144.45 and is all-in

I'd normally just bet, bet, bet. If he was more like a solid LAG (something like 22/19) I think I'd like it more, since he's more likely to be floating with something like AQ. Don't we give him an opportunity to check behind and play pot control with like 99-JJ (or fold after you jam)?

I think I'd like a bet of like $36-$45 again on the turn, which would pretty much commit any made hand, and its hard to fold the turn for the same price. Plus it induces shoves. All hands are drawing VERY thin against us.

If villain likes to float is a nice line. Otherwise i would rather bet/bet/bet.

fwiw, the reason i checked turn had virtually nothing to do with thinking villain would float the flop here. it's a slightly possible bonus, but i had no reason to lead me to think he would

combuboom said:

fwiw, the reason i checked turn had virtually nothing to do with thinking villain would float the flop here. it's a slightly possible bonus, but i had no reason to lead me to think he would

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so why did you check turn? Pot control? because 99-JJ are more likely to call a river bet than a turn bet with leverage?

well i was hoping to get more people's comments before i gave my own reasoning, not trying to be a tease

I think calling 3-bets with PPs is often a losing play since you so rarely get the implied odds you need, but people seem to do it pretty often anyway. So PPs are in his range. I'm going to guess that AQ/AK is as well.

If he stuck with a small pocket pair before the flop, he's certainly not folding it on the flop. And once the 8 pairs, the likelyhood of him having a set goes down from 9 combos to 7 combos, which is a good result for you. Your flop bet, in his eyes, likely doesn't narrow your range at all since you'd probably c-bet this flop with everything you 3-bet with preflop.

If you bet the turn, you look like you have a hand; by betting you're saying that you have a big pair - whether or not he'd believe that is another issue. But by checking the turn, it looks like you're giving up. If he has a PP, he will feel compelled to bet the turn for protection. If he has a hand that he floated with, he "must" bet the turn as a bluff (otherwise what was he hoping for when he floated the flop?).

Giving a free card is not costly at all on the turn since he has either two or three outs to beat you, or has you crushed. And we're certainly committed no matter which line we take on the turn. So if he's the kind of player who doesn't stack off with an unimproved medium PP when someone bets three barrels, this maximizes value.

This is a great way to balance the same line with AsKs. I like it a lot. Well played, sir.

i assume we have checked the turn mainly to let smaller pp's to bet the turn when they would otherwise likely fold to our bet.

Overall i like the line very much although my only real coment is what do you expect to call the shove???

Is villain really going to stack a small overpair to this shove???

If we check/call turn, can we do the same on river to try and get value from the hands that may bet river but won't stack off here??

overall i really like the line, although i'm not sure the shove maximises value after we have checked, but it seems fine to me

I really think is this villain dependent. This morning I have a villain calling 3 barrels with 88 as an overpair to the board. I guess he also calls the turn shove here with 99+. Maybe he does so too with 77.

The line works for me - villain's got... what, about two thirds of his stack in now? Our line pretty much screams overpair, but it could be anything from AA down to 99. I think villain probably gives us action with JJ+, maybe even a crying call with TT, given the size of the pot.

We lose action from AK / AQ and underpairs, but our position means we're highly unlikely to get any more action from those hands anyway. If we flat call then check the river to them they're going to have to be pretty mad to bet unless they improve to a boat or at least aces up.

If we had position, I might like a flat call better on the turn - our opponent might take that final chance to fire on the river, figuring it's the only way he'll win and if he check-folds, he probably wasn't calling a shove on the turn anyway.

switch0723 said:

Overall i like the line very much although my only real coment is what do you expect to call the shove???

Is villain really going to stack a small overpair to this shove???

If we check/call turn, can we do the same on river to try and get value from the hands that may bet river but won't stack off here??

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i thought about this too. it just didnt feel right to me since if i just call there would have been like ~240 in the pot and he woulda had only ~65 behind for river. i dont figure he'd bother value betting a medium pair on the end unless he thinks i can actually call with AK-high, since at that point i pretty much either have that or a big pair. and if an A hits that'd be kind of bad. also i guess if he happens to have a FD it's best to just get it in now

plus if he'll bet/fold a small-med pair now but won't value bet on the river unless he hits, a reasonable assumption, then i'd be giving him kind of a freeroll to hit. granted it's only a 5% freeroll, but a 5% freeroll in a very large pot

generally if the other player is getting like 4:1 or something ridiculous on a call and i want the money in, i just get it in on that street, especially OOP. maybe this was an exception? still not completely sure about that part

Either way if you check-raise or check-call the turn, it's pretty obvious you have a big pair. I think either way will shut down the action. It would be pretty unlikely for him to value bet a worse pocket pair on the river after you check. Since you'd be getting great odds to call, I don't think he's going to continue a float bluff on the river. I think it's best to check-raise and price out the 2 and 3 outers, as I don't think calling wins you any extra.

combuboom said:

i thought about this too. it just didnt feel right to me since if i just call there would have been like ~240 in the pot and he woulda had only ~65 behind for river. i dont figure he'd bother value betting a medium pair on the end unless he thinks i can actually call with AK-high, since at that point i pretty much either have that or a big pair. and if an A hits that'd be kind of bad. also i guess if he happens to have a FD it's best to just get it in now

plus if he'll bet/fold a small-med pair now but won't value bet on the river unless he hits, a reasonable assumption, then i'd be giving him kind of a freeroll to hit. granted it's only a 5% freeroll, but a 5% freeroll in a very large pot

generally if the other player is getting like 4:1 or something ridiculous on a call and i want the money in, i just get it in on that street, especially OOP. maybe this was an exception? still not completely sure about that part

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aye i see now, i didn't realise he only had ~65 left behind. Ye i'm fine getting it in on the turn then since villain is probably stacking his entire range that isn't a complete bluff given the odds, and by check/calling, we may see a check/check river and lose value to the hands that would willingly stack turn

viking999 said:

Either way if you check-raise or check-call the turn, it's pretty obvious you have a big pair. I think either way will shut down the action. It would be pretty unlikely for him to value bet a worse pocket pair on the river after you check. Since you'd be getting great odds to call, I don't think he's going to continue a float bluff on the river. I think it's best to check-raise and price out the 2 and 3 outers, as I don't think calling wins you any extra.

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Im not sure if i like your reasoning here. If you beleive that he will not float bluff you then I think check call is correct, as he will only river bet if you are beat. If you push the better hands are going to call you, and not many worse hands will, going by your logic that it is obviously an overpair. The value losing if a 2 outer hits does not make up for the losses from hands that have you beat. I am not sure if i totally agree with your logic, I think a he could float bet again, but thats not really my point. It isnt about winning any extra by calling it is not losing any more.

BelgoSuisse said:

I really think is this villain dependent. This morning I have a villain calling 3 barrels with 88 as an overpair to the board. I guess he also calls the turn shove here with 99+. Maybe he does so too with 77.

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200NL FR is a bit more snug than 6max.

widowmaker89 said:

Im not sure if i like your reasoning here. If you beleive that he will not float bluff you then I think check call is correct, as he will only river bet if you are beat. If you push the better hands are going to call you, and not many worse hands will, going by your logic that it is obviously an overpair. The value losing if a 2 outer hits does not make up for the losses from hands that have you beat. I am not sure if i totally agree with your logic, I think a he could float bet again, but thats not really my point. It isnt about winning any extra by calling it is not losing any more.

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So you're saying you just call here and then fold if he bets the river??? Even though you'd only be calling ~$65 on the river to win ~$300?

I like the push.

No im not saying that, I like the push as well. I was showing Viking his arguement doesnt really make sense. My last sentence was assuming his logic was correct (although i explained I disagreed with it). I agree he is calling with almost his entire range, so we are losing value if we check. I do think he calls us here with JJ, QQ maybe FD, all of which he would probably check behind.