200NL FR: I have 2nd nuts. Gimme your stack

villain is new to table and we are unknown to each other so assume no reads or table image. he's called one raise in like 5 or 6 hands and he folded the flop to a cbet. he sat down and posted his big blind in MP though, fwiw

~$200 effective stacks

Dealt to combuboom [Tc Ts]
combuboom raises to $7
vonryler calls $7
DKwiNz folds
fishermanyu folds
Scuba1127 folds
GMoney2001 folds
Chomper44 folds
GAUK folds
richierich169 folds
*** FLOP *** [Td 6d 4s]
combuboom bets $12
vonryler calls $12
*** TURN *** [Td 6d 4s] [4d]

pot is $41, he has $183.75 behind and i cover

what sort of range do you put an unknown on after he calls an UTG raise and flats flop? any merit to getting tricky here and checking? if you're betting, what amount do you like?

I'd check here since he most likely has zero outs. I'd put him on 77 88 99 or ace ten or maybe a flush draw. JJ + would probably raise this flop. If he has a flush here he'll probably bet after you check, and by checking you make him believe you're first bet was a bluff and you can probably get a call on the river.

I bet about $18 for 3 reasons

1. If they called on flop with a made hand, then they will call this bet still thinking their hand is good, so by betting $18 we can extract value from worse hands, then fire river again for smething around $40 since betting in odd ways such as there may look weak and induce the call from top pair

2. The flush draw, if villain was on a flush now, they just hit it, so by betting 18$ it seems like a weak bet so will definately induce the raise from villain either now or on the river. Also id re raise any raise, expecting hte flush to stack into us

3. Draws, if villain had a weird straight draw on flop or has now hit the flush draw on turn, we want to give them the right odds to call to ensure we dont lose them, $18 should do this.

On river, id be putting in a large value bet but what size exactly depends on the river

This sooo looks like AK if you check, and are being floated. The great thing is that if villian has air then your getting added value from an induced bluff, and 66/made flushes inevitabley pay off anyway.

Checkidy.

tenbob said:

The great thing is that if villian has air then your getting added value from an induced bluff.

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I don't think that you're going to see a call on flop with air unless he is planning a peculiar bluff line later on, but mostly if he's on complete air he's gonna fold (or raise, making the move on the flop). Here are the different hands in his range and how much value we lose/gain with checking vs betting:

completed fd: We want to build the pot up against as it will be very hard to stack on the river with such a large stack: pot ratio. Hard to say precisely but we probably lose some value from flushes that check behind on the turn or get duly scared when we c/r.

66 pays us off no matter what, we getted stacked by 44 no matter what.

AT/lower pps fold to a bet/check behind. We are not losing any value by betting afaicantell (if vil is holding Ad/Kd then a bet might even gain value)


Therefore betting is best imo as betting/checking only has an effect of ev on completed flushes.



edit: I assumed that all overpairs would have reraised pf (and defo on the flop) - at 200nl i don't know if this assumption is correct...

i decided to check, although i don't know if it's always the best move against his range. i bet here sometimes and check here sometimes. basically, like what tenbob said, i figure i can represent AK or AQ pretty well and um being tricky is fun. betting might be better, idk

so then...

Dealt to combuboom [Tc Ts]
combuboom raises to $7
vonryler calls $7
DKwiNz folds
fishermanyu folds
Scuba1127 folds
GMoney2001 folds
Chomper44 folds
GAUK folds
richierich169 folds
*** FLOP *** [Td 6d 4s]
combuboom bets $12
vonryler calls $12
*** TURN *** [Td 6d 4s] [4d]
combuboom checks
vonryler bets $20

villain bets $20 into $41 and now has $163 more behind. now what's his range, and what do you do (ideally include an amount if you're raising)?

If you flat call you're pretty much repping an overpair. This means that if you check to him again on the river you'll probably get a chance to c/r as all flushes will value bet and crazy midpairs and the like might turn their hand into a bluff which is some nice added value. I can't see any immediate merit for flatcalling the turn then betting the river as it is so tricky that a lot of flushes will only call behind on the river in confusion.

The only place where I can possibly see you losing value here though with a flat call is where the vil is holding a small flush as you may not get the opportunity to stack the river as if the vil is facing a c/shove we could possibly see a sane laydown. Raising to around $55 (a fairly small raise) on the turn keeps hold of smaller flushes and likens the chance of a river value bet being called imo as the line doesn't reeeeeeeek of uberslowplayed 2nd nuts. Raising loses a little bit of ev from bluffs possibly but I think at this stage a flush makes up such a large part of his range that we have to build the pot and raise so that we can get more money in on the river.

argh, by checking its now very hard for us to disguise the strength of our hand. I think we have to just flat call now and try and look like a flush draw or top pair. We just have to hope for a non diamond river, so that we can bet big and represent a busted draw

If we raise, it will look like we have a real strong hand, and we will lose value from top pairs or middle pairs even, maybe even a 4. Therefore i think our best option is to call here and bet big on river to try and extract value from the middle and top pairs

switch0723 said:

argh, by checking its now very hard for us to disguise the strength of our hand.

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very true, main drawback of checking imo

I think you got a little of the fancy play syndrom here. Betting the turn disguises your hand much more than checking since when you call or raise or bet or raise the river you will raise big red flags. People would expect you to slow play a monster like a full hose so you are playing into his expectations and making it harder to extract value later.

Villan obviously likes his hand so let him keep calling. If he has the nut flush he will prob raise the river and call any reraise. However with check/calling the turn and then either checking or betting the river he'll take a closer look at that pair on the board and realize (probably for the first time) that he may be beat.

I don't think the villian is going to lay his hand down, so i would tend to go more along the value betting line as opposed to trying to get him to shove. If you check-raise now, it is pretty hard to put you on anything but nut-flush or FH. But a flat call won't make that much sense either....looks more like you are trapping, since you could only really have a small flush and geniunely want to check. And you probably aren't going to raise preflop then lead out with a hand that could give you a smaller flush (9T or w/e). Checking could lead you to representing AK, BUT you are going to lay your hand down to his bet on the turn if you did actually have AK (unless you have the nut flush).

I agree that betting the turn in this case probably disguises your hand more than check/calling and probably will result in you getting more money. I really doubt he has AT, or he would probably reraise you on the flop with TPTK. Calling isn't an option with top pair here. So he probably was either trying to slow play 66 or has a flush. Both hands you won't get him to lay down by value betting at any stage, and by betting the turn you're very likely to get reraised. The only way i could see check calling being better here is if he put you on a total bluff (and he also missed)--so if you fired a second barrel he might have folded, however, he will obviously bet the turn after you check it putting you on AK/AQ. But as soon as you call the bet, he can no longer put you on those cards and would have put you on a monster i would think

fwiw i'd pretty much always bet the turn again vs. a regular or someone i knew was at least decent, for aforementioned hand strength/hand disguising reasons.

but yeah i pretty much agree that even against an unknown betting the turn should be the default line. although let's not pretend betting again disguises my strength that much. the overwhelming amount of the time i'm going to have at least an overpair when i bet again. and on this board with the preflop action, the relative strength difference between an overpair and a flush isn't a ton, just mostly applicable when he has reason to fear he has a weaker flush than mine

I think if you lead this turn, he raises with the flush and you can probably get him to commit enough of his stack to be committed. Say you lead and bet 34, he probably will raise to something close to 85-95 and then I think you push can push and make this play far more profitable even if he doesn't call your push. You're not getting an extra bet on the turn bet checking and raising if he has the flush. He is probably a decent thinking player and is going to know you're strong. I think you get max value here from leading the turn even if he folds to that bet, in the long run, you extract more by leading, it looks bluffier.

I would lead the turn for 2/3 pot. I'm looking to build the pot. He will obv fold more hands, but I want to build the pot to get it AI by the river. I know 200nl plays differently from my 25 or 50 max game, so that may not be the best line here.