$200nl Folding AK to 3bet

Irexes

Irexes

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Villain is 12/12 over 410 hands and I've never seen him do anything odd or remotely fishy.

Fatdan is 11/7 and tight preflop (I have 2k hands on him).

Fold is very dependant on reads, but whaddayathink? Could be squeezing but I don't like many post-flop scenarios.

OOO my first Ring HA thread I think :)

pokerstars Game #20075866087: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2008/09/01 - 18:56:55 (ET)
Table 'Gabriella IV' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: Irexes ($351.65 in chips)
Seat 3: Uncle LG ($211.20 in chips)
Seat 4: FATDAN44 ($200 in chips)
Seat 5: Alphafoil ($370.90 in chips)
Seat 6: PulledPork7 ($196 in chips)
Seat 7: Spagiari ($226.20 in chips)
Seat 8: 3bigballs ($67.55 in chips)
Seat 9: crafty_1962 ($175.45 in chips)
PulledPork7: posts small blind $1
tommyBstring has returned
Spagiari: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Irexes [Kd Ah]
3bigballs: folds
crafty_1962: calls $2
Irexes: raises $8 to $10
Uncle LG: folds
FATDAN44: calls $10
Alphafoil: raises $28 to $38
PulledPork7: folds
Spagiari: folds
Spagiari is sitting out
crafty_1962: folds
Irexes: folds
FATDAN44: folds
Uncalled bet ($28) returned to Alphafoil
Alphafoil collected $35 from pot
Alphafoil: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $35 | Rake $0
Seat 1: Irexes folded before Flop
Seat 3: Uncle LG folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: FATDAN44 folded before Flop
Seat 5: Alphafoil (button) collected ($35)
Seat 6: PulledPork7 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: Spagiari (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: 3bigballs folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: crafty_1962 folded before Flop
 
Irexes

Irexes

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Perhaps a compare and contrast

3better here is 9/8 over 444 hands, original raiser is same guy as the first hand (different table)

PokerStars Game #20076336921: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2008/09/01 - 19:16:55 (ET)
Table 'Eureka II' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: urodoc ($215.50 in chips)
Seat 2: thomas41on1 ($40 in chips)
Seat 3: MeleaB ($37 in chips)
Seat 4: Alphafoil ($255.05 in chips)
Seat 5: ryanj9352 ($188 in chips)
Seat 6: iponnet ($179.10 in chips)
Seat 7: Irexes ($228.20 in chips)
Seat 8: Belok ($170 in chips)
Seat 9: scorpionfish ($467.25 in chips)
iponnet: posts small blind $1
Irexes: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Irexes [As Kc]
Belok: folds
scorpionfish: folds
urodoc: folds
thomas41on1: folds
MeleaB: folds
Alphafoil: raises $4 to $6
ryanj9352: raises $18 to $24
iponnet: folds
Irexes: calls $22
Alphafoil: folds
*** FLOP *** [2d 8s 9h]
Irexes: bets $30
 
zachvac

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First hand, Dan is irrelevant, he's never doing this with a monster, he's either on a low pocket pair or suited connectors or something. I'd probably get it in here because if I remember correctly Alpha likes to try to get tricky and just spews chips. This is a squeeze a lot of the time I think he'll fold/call with worse (AQ, maybe even like AJ or KQ) enough to offset the times he's lucky and has AA/KK here.

Second hand I hate the call there. You're oop against a solid player (I'd say he was top 10 regs there when I took my shot) and I just don't think donking into him here is ever a hand. Hell if I were him I'd be thinking you have maybe TT or so and assuming he thinks you're a solid player he can raise and double barrell if necessary with basically ATC. I just don't like the flat 3-bet donk flop line because I don't believe you're ever doing this with AA/KK. You're not getting odds to set mine, so you're never flatting a 3-bet with 22/88/99 so what exactly are you repping here? It's just spew imo.
 
zachvac

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Oh and PLEASE convert hand histories. The regs do google their names and if CC ever gets back onto google you do not want these people finding these analyses.
 
blankoblanco

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in hand 1, do you have villain's 3bet stat? 12/12 is pretty tight, but it suggests he always likes to have initiative in hands, which means i think you have to give them credit for the possibility of squeezing and some light 3betting. but assuming you've been tight (i think you should give your own stats/image at that point since it affects the hand a looot), this might not be a spot where he'd squeeze often or ever. given the stack depth i actually don't hate the fold (guess i'm a nit) cause it's just gonna be tough to play otherwise and you're never in great shape if you get it in pre

hand 2 is just weird.. i'm not sure what you're doing
 
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yea i think hand 2 is really bizzare as this cannot ever really be a hand, unless you have some really weird history going on between you. It could only ever really be a hand if you have 88/99 and know villain will always raise a donk bet and 88/99 doesn't play like this pf since you don't have odds to set mine. pretty sure i'd shove my entire range overtop of your bet if i was villain in hand 2.
 
BelgoSuisse

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Hand 1: I think we really need 3bet stats and position stats to get what our 12/12's range is. As well as your stats since you have a lot of hands with these villains so they most likely have a decent idea of your style.

If you're even just a little bit loose and given that villain is on the BTN, this is a perfect squeezing spot and i would really not give him too much credit. I 4bet this and expect a fold a huge majority of the time.

Hand 2: Weird hand. What hand other than Ace high would you play along this line? I think I 4bet here too, but I'm playing 6max exclusively these days, so maybe i'm a bit too agg for FR.
 
Irexes

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I'm 17/8.

I don't have 3bet stats as I don't use them as they lead me into bad decisions based on too small samples (that's a story for another thread).

Thanks for the responses, I'm pleased that the reaction is what it is, cause I figured I was playing these situations differently to most. This is also reminiscent of reaction to how I play certain spots in MTTs.

I'm developing a strong feeling that a lot of people play a game which is heavily preflop orientated (in terms of big pots) and includes a lot more betting light than I get involved in. This in turn leads to a perception that the range of others is similar and that they behave similarly in certain cirumstances.

The first hand I just can't see any point in getting involved against two tight decent players. Am I really walking away with more money than I'm putting in, in the long run?

Second hand, I play AA, KK, QQ and sets the same way a big % of the time and maybe he's picked up on that. I don't see him reraising me there much unless I'm absolutely beat. It's a stop-and-go 4 bet if you like and assuming he has me pegged as decent I don't see him playing back with anything but on overpair or better. Against a donk he's clearly not buying it and coming back a lot more. He folded here.

I'm not disagreeing with anyone here about their comments, they are all valid, but I've got a sneaky suspicion that the game I've built isn't exactly standard with almost nittiness preflop combined with either extreme passivity or extreme aggression postflop. I've avoided engaging with this bit of the forum while I've been learning as I wanted to be confident in my game based on the outcomes before read too much and paniced I was doing it wrong.

Anyway thoughts much appreciated :)
 
zachvac

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I'll leave hand 1 alone now, it's marginal and shoving or folding there's fine imo.

But for hand #2, please explain how your play is any better than a 4-bet? Especially if you don't 4-bet light ever, 4-betting will fold out all underpairs and such as well. I just think you turn your hand face-up here. If you do it with aces, good for you you'll get some action when you play this way with aces, but flatting a 3-bet and leading the flop with unders imo puts you on a range that does not want to stack here.

Also note that repping a set is pointless here, as villain is never incorrect to stack with an overpair because you didn't have implied odds to set mine even if he stacks every time. So basically the only thing you've got to rep is an overpair, and I don't see any good player buying it. Like I said playing AA like this may be profitable against good aggressive players, because they'll start pushing on you just as I mentioned I'm assuming a good player would here. But at least at this point I don't think you need to balance your range that much. I just totally hate flatting AK oop to a 3-bet. Are you stacking if you flop TPTK? You literally turn your hand into a bluff unless you just end up coolering someone with like an AAK flop and they have KK, or a QJT flop against QQ.
 
Irexes

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Also note that repping a set is pointless here, as villain is never incorrect to stack with an overpair because you didn't have implied odds to set mine even if he stacks every time. So basically the only thing you've got to rep is an overpair, and I don't see any good player buying it. Like I said playing AA like this may be profitable against good aggressive players, because they'll start pushing on you just as I mentioned I'm assuming a good player would here. But at least at this point I don't think you need to balance your range that much. I just totally hate flatting AK oop to a 3-bet. Are you stacking if you flop TPTK? You literally turn your hand into a bluff unless you just end up coolering someone with like an AAK flop and they have KK, or a QJT flop against QQ.

There seems to be a lot less pushing going on in the games I'm playing than the ones other people play in :)

I rarely stack TPTK with AK v anyone decent and not here. I guess I just don't believe villain is defining my hand so exactly based on my actions. Perhaps this is because I play my preflop range very differently. I should have posted the 2nd one without my hand showing, would have been interesting to see what range you put me on. I don't mind the whole "turning my hand into a bluff" thing too much I guess.

I've clearly got a different meta-game approach which is fine with me :)

Interesting to compare and contrast.
 
F Paulsson

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I'm not necessarily a proponent of Rex's play in the second hand, but...
So basically the only thing you've got to rep is an overpair, and I don't see any good player buying it.
From a 17/8? Versus a typical 17/8, I'd put him on JJ or TT a very large portion of the time, and AA most of the rest of the time. Then, after finding out he coldcalls and then leads out with AK on a flop like this, I'd put a note on him saying that he did just that. And if Rex is right about his ranges, that might well get me in trouble in the future.

I wouldn't play this the same way, though, but in comparing the stats, it's clear that I don't play most hands the same way as him, so it's difficult to compare.
 
zachvac

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There seems to be a lot less pushing going on in the games I'm playing than the ones other people play in :)
This is semi-true because a lot of people here I think play 6max. It wasn't too long ago that I played FR though and at 200nl there wasn't a ton of 4-bet bluffs and such but with regs (which the players in your hands are) were extremely common in CO vs. button or CO/Button vs. blinds situations. If the original raiser in hand 2 here was UTG I'd most likely fold this because the button realizes UTG has a small opening range and is still raising here.
I rarely stack TPTK with AK v anyone decent and not here. I guess I just don't believe villain is defining my hand so exactly based on my actions. Perhaps this is because I play my preflop range very differently. I should have posted the 2nd one without my hand showing, would have been interesting to see what range you put me on.
I agree, this would have been good. But if you don't stack TPTK when you hit it, what exactly are you stacking? You put in 1/4 of your stack and are just planning to bluff/fold any flop?

I don't mind the whole "turning my hand into a bluff" thing too much I guess.
Maybe we disagree on this then but I think your hand has a ton of value against the COs opening range and the button's 3-betting range.

I've clearly got a different meta-game approach which is fine with me :)

Interesting to compare and contrast.

I definitely agree with this kind of thing, I've been doing a ton of thinking about non-standard lines and playing a bit differently which I've had a small amount of criticism for here, but imo this hand is spew. I don't think you get a lot of folds and I think you're just wasting your huge preflop equity against their ranges. The problem is that if they fold, they were going to fold to a 4-bet. If they float/shove on you, you're folding (even when you do hit the A or K). So how does this increase your equity? I understand there are different lines to take but I think in this situation it's just plain less profitable to take your line rather than just a preflop 4-bet.
 
c9h13no3

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Hand #2: 4-betting pre & check/raising this flop are IMO both better lines than donking the flop. I don't think any hand that has a pair is folding on this flop. So we only fold out hands we beat by donking & there's no expectation in betting unless his range contains a lot of no-pair hands. Why don't we check/raise, and let him c-bet his air/check behind & give us a free card?

I just so rarely want to donk a flop in a 3-bet pot, that I don't think its worth balancing my range with some bluffs because I do it so very rarely.

I don't mind not insta-4-betting with AK in full ring, since there's a lot less light 3-betting going on (and thus, you have a lot less fold equity). However, I still think 4-betting is preferable to the lines you took in these situations when dealing with aggressive regs. If a 60/5 fish was 3-betting you in hand #1, I'd be much more inclined to fold.
 
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Irexes

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I think I just see a lot more ways to play this for medium sized pots to get value post-flop. Kxx and Axx result in plenty of scenarios where another bet is extracted that don't provoke a push.

A 4 bet preflop is ok if you are prepared to call a shove, but I'm not interested in that versus this guy it just doesn't seem profitable given that I don't see him shoving AQ and his shove range must be more KK and AA than everything else combined.

If he calls a 4 bet it's the same scenario I found myself in, but with a bigger pot that I can't get away from post-flop, particularly given that I'm obliged to take a stab at it regardless. And check-call is asking for trouble.

I feel I've created a situation where I can win the pot a lot of the time, without finding myself getting sucked into being stacked when I was behind from the moment the cards were dealt. I've also given myself a chance to win a number of medium pots versus a lot of pairs and KQ, AQ on a range of flops.

Also I can't stress to much how my line is the same with a bigger range of hands.

You are right that there's not much (if anything he's folding here that he wasn't folding to a 4 bet) but then I'd lose the value of the slightly larger pots I can pick up on Axx and Kxx flops (along with the check-raises on appropriate boards). As a bonus I avoid a lot of preflop stackings and post-flop stackings.

I expect this to be reasonably controversial, but it's working for me so far thinking like this and I haven't found many people even at $200 who I feel have me out-thought. Chuck said once that he thought my preflop tourney game could easily be mistaken for a donk, but it didn't match my post-flop which was weird, but played off the preflop ranges. The more I compare my thought processes to others the more I am inclined to agree :)

Final point is to add that these hands are so context dependant and change some variables and they play very differently to me.
 
Irexes

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Just to note I do think he's folding 33-77 sometimes, because he's going to be considering the action on subsequent streets. On such a dry board if he is behind he is staying there, which makes calling a non-option. While a reraise starts to get him committed. Given that my line fits sets well (I see exactly this line for sets a lot from decent players as it screams weakness) I think he's getting out of dodge a lot of the time here to avoid marginal decisions on the turn and river that he's priced himself into.

Of course he's playing back a fair chunk of the time as well, but then I've avoided pricing myself in so that's ok too.
 
zachvac

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ok well here's my question, if you don't feel like putting what you'd do here on a public forum feel free to ignore my questions:

1. What range are you doing this with? AA/KK/AK? A few bluffs? QQ? JJ?

2. How would you play this on each possible move here?

a. flop is A83 rainbow, villain shoves over the top
b. flop is A83 rainbow, villain flat calls flop
c. Same flop as in your example, villain flat calls flop
i. turn is A/K
ii. turn is a blank

3. In this example, what line do you expect from TT? Light 3-bets?


Not sure I understand exactly what you're doing, but I'll definitely understand if you don't answer these for fear of others finding this site and seeing it. Luckily though we can probably have these conversations in safety for now with CC not on google. But since most people here aren't playing 200nl FR (in fact I don't think any are) you probably don't have to worry about being exploited.
 
zachvac

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Just to note I do think he's folding 33-77 sometimes, because he's going to be considering the action on subsequent streets. On such a dry board if he is behind he is staying there, which makes calling a non-option. While a reraise starts to get him committed. Given that my line fits sets well (I see exactly this line for sets a lot from decent players as it screams weakness) I think he's getting out of dodge a lot of the time here to avoid marginal decisions on the turn and river that he's priced himself into.

Of course he's playing back a fair chunk of the time as well, but then I've avoided pricing myself in so that's ok too.

But sets do not have implied odds to mine, so a good player at least would not be calling with a pocket pair. I'm assuming you are not flatting 3-bets with 88 or 99 are you?
 
Irexes

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1) all of them and a few more

2)
a) he's got AK, AQ or 88 (occassional 33) so I call, there's other Axx flops I fold

for the rest I'm looking at pot control or for him to stab at it with hands I'm beating. Dry board makes this pretty safe for check-calling it down. Maybe some creativity around the turn if it's a blank but I'm being vague about that and it would really depend on the card. I can see myself doing some fun things come the river in certain circumstances :)
 
Irexes

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But sets do not have implied odds to mine, so a good player at least would not be calling with a pocket pair. I'm assuming you are not flatting 3-bets with 88 or 99 are you?

Ooo no that would be horrid. He's got a range that includes and lot of mid-low pair though surely?

Assuming he giving me credit for not mining then my range is QQ+ with not much else thrown in (JQs etc out of position type hands can't be very common) so he's got to be heading post-flop thinking he's in trouble unless he's holding QQ+ himself.
 
Irexes

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Regarding being exploited I'm not too worried and in fact this thread would probably help me get stacks in the same situation with AA and KK so it's all good.

(think I'm the only 200fr here atm too :()
 
zachvac

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Ooo no that would be horrid. He's got a range that includes and lot of mid-low pair though surely?

Assuming he giving me credit for not mining then my range is QQ+ with not much else thrown in (JQs etc out of position type hands can't be very common) so he's got to be heading post-flop thinking he's in trouble unless he's holding QQ+ himself.

Right, what I'm saying though is that if you 4-bet this he thinks the same thing, but you're giving him a free flop. If he 3-bet you with 88, he flopped a set and would have mucked preflop if you 4-bet. The problem is that calling a 3-bet and firing the flop isn't a very good recipe for pot control.

If he flats, it's not even that much of an over-bet to just shove. I just don't see how you're going to be able to control the pot at all this way.


I still don't quite understand what you're making this move with, but in general QQ+ is stacking here I think. Anything less, with the possible exception of AK, is folding to a 4-bet unless you 4-bet light. I just don't see a single upside to it. Of course this is in a vacuum, of course you can't just 4-bet AK and start flatting AA/KK, so maybe this is ok to do to balance your range. But I'd rather see a 4-bet from all those hands than flatting a 3-bet and donking the flop. I guess it's your style, but I personally think you'd be better off just 4-betting rather than flatting 3-bets and donking the flop.
 
zachvac

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Regarding being exploited I'm not too worried and in fact this thread would probably help me get stacks in the same situation with AA and KK so it's all good.

(think I'm the only 200fr here atm too :()

Actually I just remembered I think combu is at 200nl FR as well right? He's just not on Stars.
 
Irexes

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Okey doke,

If I 4 bet preflop then my value comes from him folding.
So where does the value come from having in AK being my hand as opposed to ATC as it's not seeing the river as favourite very often?

This is because surely his range for shoving has AK as a dog (lots of JJ+ and not much else), so calling a shove is only correct because I am priced in to do so by a pot I juiced myself?

Or do I get a fold enough that it makes up for the loss of equity when I call a shove?

In theory my line avoids the shove and opens other doors while still providing opportunties for the "stop-and-go 4 bet" (ho ho). Not saying that it's cut and dried (it really isn't), just exploring the 4 bet and where the +ev comes from in order to understand.
 
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