re: Poker & [200NL] AT flops middle pair, OOP vs. fish.
Originally Posted by c9h13no3
So essentially, by check/calling we hope that the fish will bet wrongly.
I think you just hit the nail on the proverbial head for what you're misunderstanding with the idea behind check/calling this flop.
We're not HOPING he will bet wrongly. We're checking because
a) he'll often bet with a worse hand,
b) he'll often check back, keeping the pot smaller
If this was about getting more money into the pot, betting is clearly superior. It's the combination of either keeping the pot small, or, when if it MUST grow, at least have him add some bluffs to his range.
By betting, we're getting money into the pot - sure. Our range is better than his when he calls the flop - sure. But since the rest of C9's line was to check the turn and check/fold the river, I just don't see the line here.
For those of you saying I miss value by checking the flop, are you saying I can get three streets of value out of a worse hand? Can you explain your lines (Zach, Combu) past the flop, please? If your line is to bet the flop and check/call the turn then clearly we're getting less money in while good. We can bet the flop, he will call almost always, ditching only the trash. He will raise some of the time, and you advocate a fold. That can be argued separately, but is probably not a big loss or win in the big scheme of things anyway. But:
If we bet the flop and he calls, and we then check to him on the turn, you're hoping he bets the turn rather than take a free card, right? Because otherwise, we're just giving up more value than you said we're missing on the flop, unless the turn hits a draw for him. We will have more equity on the turn (the majority of time), and if we're looking to get two streets of value with our hand it should be the turn and the river. So if you bet the flop out of fear of missing value, are you looking to get three streets of value, i.e. bet/bet/bet?
So, lines after the flop, guys.
Dr_Dick: I don't mean to come off as jerk, but it sounds like you're spouting catchphrases, and I'm not sure you know what "pot control" means if you're saying I'm losing it by checking. I advocate giving up initiative, but you saying that as if it's obviously a bad thing is not going to go unchallenged: why is that a bad thing?
The idea of giving up immediate value vs. an opponent because you'll be playing a session with him is really not good. You don't know how many more hands you get to play with him before he's off to watch TV, or before someone else stacks him and/or he simply leaves.