[200NL 6max] QQ vs Cold 4bet

B

bw07507

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The cold 4bettor here is 17/13/3.6 over 770 hands. A regular at 200NL 6max. His 3bet% is 7.5% and his 4bet stat is 25% although over a very small sample (1/4).

I am typical 20/18/3 and have been 3betting ~7-8% lately and have also been pretty active on this table.

poker stars, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

BB: $233.25 (116.6 bb)
UTG: $200 (100 bb)
MP: $214.60 (107.3 bb)
CO: $200 (100 bb)
Hero (BTN): $215.70 (107.9 bb)
SB: $196 (98 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is BTN with Q
spade.gif
Q
club.gif

2 folds, CO raises to $6, Hero raises to $20, SB raises to $55, 2 folds, Hero ?
 
blankoblanco

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i'd just jam it. you're pretty active, on the button, he's capable of moves, you're obv near the top of your range

but first, type in chat "you got dem pocket kangz?"
 
zachvac

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You serious? I'm a complete nit and I stack this without question. I think jamming jacks here may even be fine. If he's a reg he's probably doing this light assuming you like to 3-bet in position a lot (and I'm pretty sure you do. If you don't already you should start). You're not deep or anything either, I just get this in and expect him to fold or still have AK a good amount or sometimes even like JJ/AQ. Cooler if he has AA/KK imo.
 
bob_tiger

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i'd just jam it. you're pretty active, on the button, he's capable of moves, you're obv near the top of your range

but first, type in chat "you got dem pocket kangz?"

I agree with zach and combu...but I wouldn't type anything if it was me :D
 
kleitches

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i'd just jam it. you're pretty active, on the button, he's capable of moves, you're obv near the top of your range

but first, type in chat "you got dem pocket kangz?"

I chuckled :)
 
BelgoSuisse

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You serious? I'm a complete nit and I stack this without question. I think jamming jacks here may even be fine. If he's a reg he's probably doing this light assuming you like to 3-bet in position a lot (and I'm pretty sure you do. If you don't already you should start). You're not deep or anything either, I just get this in and expect him to fold or still have AK a good amount or sometimes even like JJ/AQ. Cooler if he has AA/KK imo.

Don't you get more value from the part of his range that we crush by flatting his 4bet and letting him put in a cbet on the flop? We do have position.

I don't know, maybe QQ is not strong enough for that move.
 
kolobot

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I will only say two words:
ALL IN :)
 
F Paulsson

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Don't you get more value from the part of his range that we crush by flatting his 4bet and letting him put in a cbet on the flop? We do have position.

I don't know, maybe QQ is not strong enough for that move.

The problem with the part of his range that we crush is that it's highly sensitive to overcards. How much value dare we try to get when a K or an A flops? And we have a decidely non-neglectible (is that a word?) fold equity here, too, since even a hand like K-J has almost 30% equity versus us. If we push and are called, we're going to be in it as a 40/60 dog most of the time but the dead money makes up for it, and that's not counting on the folds we'll get. Even in position, I never flat queens.

Zach, regarding regs doing this light, is that a feeling you have or have you looked into it? I can't remember seeing many (if any) regs open-4-betting (or what to call it) light, but then again, those hands very rarely go to showdown, so who knows.
 
BelgoSuisse

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The problem with the part of his range that we crush is that it's highly sensitive to overcards. How much value dare we try to get when a K or an A flops? And we have a decidely non-neglectible (is that a word?) fold equity here, too, since even a hand like K-J has almost 30% equity versus us. If we push and are called, we're going to be in it as a 40/60 dog most of the time but the dead money makes up for it, and that's not counting on the folds we'll get. Even in position, I never flat queens.

Makes sense. I never flat queens here either. Was just wondering.

Zach, regarding regs doing this light, is that a feeling you have or have you looked into it? I can't remember seeing many (if any) regs open-4-betting (or what to call it) light, but then again, those hands very rarely go to showdown, so who knows.

I do, against regs that i know like to 3bet a lot on the BTN. I would most certainly do it against zach from time to time if i played in his games regularly. But then again i'm a spewtard.
 
The Shrog

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Don't you get more value from the part of his range that we crush by flatting his 4bet and letting him put in a cbet on the flop? We do have position.

I don't know, maybe QQ is not strong enough for that move.

Maybe this move with AA, occasionally, wouldn't use it with QQ in this spot.
 
vanquish

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i prob just jam with QQ-JJ, AK, and call and shove over cbets with KK+
 
F Paulsson

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I do, against regs that i know like to 3bet a lot on the BTN. I would most certainly do it against zach from time to time if i played in his games regularly. But then again i'm a spewtard.

I've theorized about doing it because it screams so much strength, I've just never had the cojones to actually pull off the stunt. Putting in 30% of my stack with air versus two people who have already shown strength is, y'know, twice as scary as doing it versus just one.

Something else I've been toying with lately (and now I'm derailing the thread a bit, sorries) is openflatting (good term, no?) 3-bets with hands like QJs, because that, too, screams "I have AA but don't want to scary you guys off" with the reasoning that my hand has decent implied odds, the pot is very unlikely to get 4-bet preflop by the original raiser, my hand plays well multiway and because of how strong my line looks, I'll often get to see the turn for free.
 
vanquish

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I've theorized about doing it because it screams so much strength, I've just never had the cojones to actually pull off the stunt. Putting in 30% of my stack with air versus two people who have already shown strength is, y'know, twice as scary as doing it versus just one.

Something else I've been toying with lately (and now I'm derailing the thread a bit, sorries) is openflatting (good term, no?) 3-bets with hands like QJs, because that, too, screams "I have AA but don't want to scary you guys off" with the reasoning that my hand has decent implied odds, the pot is very unlikely to get 4-bet preflop by the original raiser, my hand plays well multiway and because of how strong my line looks, I'll often get to see the turn for free.

that's an idea but then you gotta have the ballsack to bluffraise/semi bluffraise cbets if you're in position
 
BelgoSuisse

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These are all really sexy moves but they require that you pay a hell of a lot of attention to your image.
 
F Paulsson

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that's an idea but then you gotta have the ballsack to bluffraise/semi bluffraise cbets if you're in position

That, for some reason I can't quite explain, comes a lot easier for me than 4-betting pre light. Not that this particular situation arises very often, but QJs flops a lot of stuff that can be raised. I can't say if it's profitable because of sample size issues, but it keeps me on my toes.

I balance it by flatting 3-bets with aces in position, by the way. If I think my opponent is likely to be 3-betting light (and doesn't like to 5b-bluff) then flatting aces is often the way to go. Not always, obviously, but often.
 
blankoblanco

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i prob just jam with QQ-JJ, AK, and call and shove over cbets with KK+

eh, if he's at all decent and knows you're decent (basically anything resembling a reg vs. reg situation), calling here defines your range waaay more than shoving so i don't like it. you can shove light, you can shove AK, but you're not calling the 4bet light or calling AK

i'd only consider flatting KK/AA here vs. someone i think is bad enough not to realize that or maybe if i have a dumb, loose image thats more passive than aggressive
 
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blankoblanco

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being tight means you can't hand-read at all? he's a reg and you can play a winning 17/13 style at 6max. flatting here is just really transparent vs. anyone with a clue (unless they specifically think you don't have a clue) and is part of the reason that the standard with AK in a 4bet pot is to check and give up when you miss, not to c-bet

also if he realizes we see him as being on the tight side, flatting his 4bet w/ AA or KK looks even more obvious. at least if we shove he can think we're trying to push him around and make him fold. or again, that we have AK
 
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