200nl 6max: KK 200 deep

Button is a 23/17 over a smallish 200 hand sample size, but shortly after I sat down I noticed he was spewing to a degree that made me think he had to have been tilting some. More like 28/24 or something. 30 ATS, 33 fold to 3bet, 20 wtsd.

SB is a 16/12/3.5 reg over 4.5k hands. 6% 3bet, 25 wtsd, ~%60 fold to cbet.

Whats our plan pf? Can we just get it in or can we find a fold if the SB shoves 200 deep? What if we 4bet, the button shoves and the SB shoves over the top? What if the button folds but SB shoves? What about our 4bet size?

Postflop...err wtf? Just bet and call a shove? I just can't see many hands stacking us here except QQ basically. BTN will stack light, but not the SB imo...

poker stars, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

Hero (BB): $485 (242.5 bb)
MP: $216.30 (108.2 bb)
CO: $240.45 (120.2 bb)
BTN: $189 (94.5 bb)
SB: $498.05 (249 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is BB with K K
2 folds, BTN raises to $8, SB raises to $28, Hero raises to $90, BTN calls $82, SB calls $62

Flop: ($270) 2 9 J (3 players)
SB checks, Hero ...

Wow, two callers to a 45bb 4bet. That's really weird preflop action.

I guess you hand is slightly underrepresented in your opponents eyes, as BTN steal can lead to light 3bet and 4bet bluff without the need of a monster, which may explain the calls.

I think postflop I expect BTN to shove this so often if we check that I think I would try to CRAI.

Ish, thats sick dude 2- callers is weird there. 4-bet pf is slightly low imo, I like between $110-120 tbh. I doubt the btn has AA there, b/c he knows his moneys going in regardless with the amount of $ already in, so he may as well just shove it in. Wow weird, I just don't see either villain with AA, just seems too risky. Sb position looks really strange, why not just push w/AK, AA?

Checking, gives the btn the opportunity to hang himself, and also a chance for us to get away from our hand if sb shoves. Betting the flop, makes us spew if sb comes over the top. Given the preference of the 2 actions I think I check here, call btn's shove if sb folds, spew if he shoves!

Just saw the hand in your blog. I do think you're missing value the way you play it.

Oh, and it's just insane how good you're running this month. I'm jealous, i'm only winning at 12 BB/100 since September 1st.

BelgoSuisse said:

Just saw the hand in your blog. I do think you're missing value the way you play it.

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CHEATER. that's defeating the purpose of the HA... Now I have to go look at his blog. Damn you.

KMC1828 said:

CHEATER. that's defeating the purpose of the HA... Now I have to go look at his blog. Damn you.

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Hand was posted 12 hours ago and only Jag and I answered. I didn't realize you were 5 minutes away from an insightful commentary. My sincere apologies.

BelgoSuisse said:

Hand was posted 12 hours ago and only Jag and I answered. I didn't realize you were 5 minutes away from an insightful commentary. My sincere apologies.

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Was kidding.

BTW, Chuck, in your blog you mention you don't have much experience playing so deep. So my questions are

1. Why do you stay at that table if you're not confortable playing this deep? I feel awkward playing 200bb deep, so if I double up my buy-in and another good player at the table is also this deep, i just walk away. I'll stay if it's a fish, of course.

2. Otherwise, why don't you train to play 200bb deep on the FTP deep tables? You could get experience there quicker and wouldn't have to get it at 200nl.

I reeeeaaaaally don't like a check here. The reason for that is that if you check and button bets, I think SB can find a shove with basically his entire range here - and we beat the majority of it.

Not to mention that if we check and it gets checked around, an ace will come off about 7% of the time, either costing us the pot or killing our action. 7% might not sound like a lot, but in a $270 pot, it's kinda costly.

So, shove, hope that button calls with TT or AJ (you think he can't have it? Someone cold-called a 35BB 4-bet with A8o on me yesterday. It happens) and then ram your fist into the table when SB snapcalls and turns over JJ. I really don't see a reason for him to have AA, but then again - people aren't me.

F Paulsson said:

I reeeeaaaaally don't like a check here. The reason for that is that if you check and button bets, I think SB can find a shove with basically his entire range here - and we beat the majority of it.

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Which is an amazingly great result if we check. If we're ahead, we need to check to let villains bluff into us.

To a very large extent this is a WA/WB for us, with the extra bonus that BTN has a huge incentive to bluff shove his last $99 into the pot when checked to him.

BelgoSuisse said:

Which is an amazingly great result if we check. If we're ahead, we need to check to let villains bluff into us.

To a very large extent this is a WA/WB for us, with the extra bonus that BTN has a huge incentive to bluff shove his last $99 into the pot when checked to him.

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Sure - but I'm not worried about button bluffing, necessarily, I'm worried about SB reacting to what he might see as a likely bluff in a huge pot.

I don't like wa/wb when the pots are big. Specifically because of the non-trivial fold equity that we have vs. even a three-outer.

F Paulsson said:

Sure - but I'm not worried about button bluffing, necessarily, I'm worried about SB reacting to what he might see as a likely bluff in a huge pot.

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Just to be clear: when I advocate checking the flop, i also mean calling a SB shove over the top of a BTN bluff.

I don't see us ever folding this hand. Losing KK to AA is standard and if they hit a set, it's just a cooler as they didn't have odds to set mine. So if villains want to play for stacks i'll gladly go along. So if we're behind, we loose our stack.

What matters is how to maximize value when we're ahead. Then, the two villains probably have 4 or 5 outs for the two of them, so we're 80:20 favorites, and i'd rather have 80% of a $1000 stack than the $270 currently in the pot + $400 in our stack. If BTN shoves and SB folds, BTN will probably have 2 or 3 outs, and once again I'd rather be 90% favorite for a $470 pot + 300 remaining in our stack than the alternative.

The only problem is that we may be giving villains a free card, but i think the risk is well worth it.

Ah.

Hm.

Yeah, that makes sense. I change my vote to what Belgo says. I'm really nervous about checking, but you're right in that our best bet of getting the rest of the money in ahead is checking. Button is likely betting with every hand that he'd call a bet with, and SB is never bluffcheckraising us but he might do it if button bets. If we get all-in vs. SB, it's much, much better if we do it when he thinks he has a chance of fold equity, than if we bet less than a shove and he checkraises.

F Paulsson said:

Yeah, that makes sense. I change my vote to what Belgo says.

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Wow! I'm really proud!

Coming back to Chuck's play. As we can see in his blog, he cbets $175 and both villains fold. But what do we do it SB comes over the top for an extra $220? Fold to the CRAI? And what do we do it if SB flat calls?

If he comes over the top on the flop, I don't think he can have many other hands than AA, QQ, KK, JJ or AcKc, or possibly AcQc. Our equity vs. that range is 42% and we're committed without hesitation. And that's without factoring in any spastic air hand that he just felt like going crazy with.

the way they played it preflop i think there would be a good chance some one had jacks..

10crow10 said:

the way they played it preflop i think there would be a good chance some one had jacks..

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when we think about our options in playing a hand, villains have ranges, not specific hands ...

BelgoSuisse said:

BTW, Chuck, in your blog you mention you don't have much experience playing so deep. So my questions are

1. Why do you stay at that table if you're not confortable playing this deep? I feel awkward playing 200bb deep, so if I double up my buy-in and another good player at the table is also this deep, i just walk away. I'll stay if it's a fish, of course.

2. Otherwise, why don't you train to play 200bb deep on the Full Tilt Poker deep tables? You could get experience there quicker and wouldn't have to get it at 200nl.

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1) well how can I get better without practicing? I never said I was horrible deepstacked, just that I didn't have all that much experience. Mainly though I was sticking around because there were several huge fish at the table, mainly the BTN and another player to his right, I think. I didn't plan on playing a big pot with the decent tag to my left without a big hand. I was fairly sure I had to get my money in here, but posted it just in case.

2) I hate ftp. Not only that but if I play there I cut into my rakeback from stars, which as you know is kind of exponential with vip level rather than linear like full tilt. Actually now that I think about it I don't even have rakeback there.

ChuckTs said:

I was fairly sure I had to get my money in here, but posted it just in case.

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But did i convince you checking the flop was better?

ChuckTs said:

I hate Full Tilt Poker. [...]Actually now that I think about it I don't even have rakeback there.

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Well, if you don't have rakeback there it's a no brainer indeed.

Yeah I do agree with a check. That way we get the spewy btn to shove a lot of his range, plus the SB may try to isolate him for a showdown with much worse hands than if I cbet this flop.

WOW! I just checked your blog! Verrry good stuff Chuck. I always enjoy reading your posts. As for your hand. Good times.