200nl 6max; 88 full house

BTN: 22/17/3 ,%7 3bet, %56 fold to flop bet, %50 to turn bet, 23% wtsd.

FP and I were having a sweat session when this came up. He said he likes checking, but I bet it.

My reasoning was that a) if he's got a king we want to get the money in before the flush hits in case he checks back the turn, b) if he's got a FD we want to charge him before he misses, and c) it's a terrible turn card and I expect my opponent to look me up with most pairs he peeled the flop with.

FP's reasoning was that a) we're getting the money in anyways against a king if we check the turn and he bets, 2) we actually want the FD to hit, !) we want him to bluff his floats and/or value bet his underpairs, and d) I can't remember what else, probably some good stuff.

Thoughts?

poker stars, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

CO: $351 (175.5 bb)
BTN: $206 (103 bb)
SB: $200 (100 bb)
BB: $60 (30 bb)
Hero (MP): $276.20 (138.1 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is MP with 8 8
Hero raises to $7, CO folds, BTN calls $7, 2 folds

Flop: ($17) 8 4 K (2 players)
Hero bets $11, BTN calls $11

Turn: ($39) K (2 players)

why not take a bit from both and bet small say ~17 - 19, that way we
1) get all the money from a king anyway
2) flush draws will have to call thus getting value in if they miss and stacking them if they hit
3) all floating hands (ace high, a 4, mid pp's) are unlikely to fold to a small bet and are drawing dead, and are likely to check back turn
4) villain has a fold to turn of 50%, thats like insta bet territory
5) if villain is floating with complete air, he may get all ego'd up and raise your weak bet
6) it allows us to build the pot a bit more than checking so we can put in a juicier river value bet

I don't really have a problem with betting OR checking here. The reasons for betting are pretty obvious. If this is someone you play with infrequently I would definately just bet. If you play against this player a lot, I think it's important to check here on occassion for balance. Especially if this is a board where you would typically cbet the flop and ch/fold the turn. This is going to deter him from floating you in the future, so he knows that floating the flop and then betting the turn when you check isn't going to be very profitable, especially if your sometimes doing this with draws as well as the nuts.

i bet all 3 streets but idk why

A king is going broke with the right sized BET on the turn. No king isn't going to play without the big draw, so hes not getting scared away because you bet a little. The big draw is even better than the king.

Certainly this bunch of poker geniuses can settle on the "right bet". I just know I'd be putting SOMETHING in the middle. Ask Richy... I'd most likely either minbet or shove. Or who knows.. maybe I mix things up a little and put in $25.

cAPS

56% fold to flop bet but he stuck around; if he's got a K he's gonna bet with the FD out there, same with underpairs, if he's got the FD he might bet or take the free card.

I lean toward checking and hoping he's got a K or decides to take a stab if he's got the FD.

As a sidenote, I would have checkraised a hand like [Jh][10h], too.

ChuckTs said:

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

So FP advocates a check and Chuck advocates a bet? What's new? Isn't that always the case in the HA section lately? I think it would be a lot more thought provoking if you guys could switch roles and try to advocate the other's side...

In this particular case, i believe i'm betting but laying down a correct price for a flush draw to call.

BelgoSuisse said:

In this particular case, i believe i'm betting but laying down a correct price for a flush draw to call.

Click to expand...

This is my thought too. Which is why in all my idiot blather I settled on the $25.

But this is interesting to me . Where do you see the line between protection and value at this point in the hand. With an average player... what is the bet here (since we are betting) that not only gets called but gets the rest in on the river?

cAPS

generally a guy that called the flop with a FD (whether he had odds or not) isn't going to fold the turn if you barrel again and don't give him odds. people don't really play FDs to peel one street. if anything, he'll call the turn and then fold to a river barrel.

i like either 3 barrels here so he can stack off with a K, a made flush, or turn a mid-pair type hand into a bluff catcher (he's more likely to call 3 barrels with a bluff catcher than a flop bet/turn check/river bet)
alternatively betting the flop, then check-calling the turn with the intention of check-raising the river is also a great line because he's going to want to value bet a lot of rivers, and he will be more inclined to call the river c/r because he will often feel that his hand is underrepped in that spot (he made one call, and one bet, so with a hand like trips/bad kicker, he might feel like he has to call just because his perceived range in his eyes is weak, whereas his actual range might actually be quite a fair bit stronger)

Anyone else feel like his range is a lot of under-pairs now that the king paired? Those are probably going to check back their showdown value here.

The only thing that makes me not want to barrel the turn is that its a pretty decent board to float (Kxx), and a 56% fold to flop bet is certainly "floating" once in a while. And I actually like vanq's line of looking to CRAI on the river.

So yeah, the two lines I like are:

1) Bet, bet, bet
2) Bet, C/R, C/R (obviously bet the river if we check/raised the turn)

Given his low fold to flop bet, I guess looking to check/raise a street may be better. But I don't think either line is that much better than the other. Bet/bet/bet would be my default though, just to protect when I 2-barrel a flush draw, ect.