200nl 6max - 3bet floaty bluffy spot.

Ok, villain has been 3betting a fair bit. I have been stealing regularly and have folded to his 3bets all time. I'm tempted to 4bet bluff here, but I'm looking to float and take it away on the turn.

Villain is 20/16/3 3bet 5% over huge sample CB 73%

Plan for the river?

Anyone like a shove here or is that just total f'kin bonkers?

poker stars, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

BB: $200 (100 bb)
UTG: $400 (200 bb)
MP: $135.25 (67.6 bb)
CO: $200 (100 bb)
Hero (BTN): $448.35 (224.2 bb)
SB: $382.05 (191 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is BTN with K 7
3 folds, Hero raises to $7, SB raises to $24, BB folds, Hero calls $17

Flop: ($50) 8 2 K (2 players)
SB bets $33, Hero calls $33

Turn: ($116) A (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $80, SB calls $80

River: ($276) 9 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero?

Any post-flop dynamics between you two besides him owning your soul with his preflop 3bets?

I like a shove here. And it does not even need to work 50% of the time to show a profit. At worst he calls and it's really good for your image. After all, that's the point of playing deep, right? Being able to make outrageous river bluffs in 3bet pots.

No, I don't remember anything significant prior to this hand other than what I described.

Jagsti said:

No, I don't remember anything significant prior to this hand other than what I described.

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Well, then it's really purely a question of ranges. What range of hands can call you turn bet and what range of hands can call a river shove. If the later range has less than half the number of hands as the prior range, shoving is +EV.

Pretty sure i'm not familiar enough with 200nl 6max regs to guesstimate those range myself, unfortunately.

%5 3bet is tiny, just fold pf.

As played I don't see much merit to betting the turn. You're not folding out better and don't often get called by worse. It's just too thin for value imo and can get you check-raised occasionally which you don't want.

somehow i'm getting the feeling that he's going to snapcall any bet by you here because call/bet/bet somehow always gets a call @ 6max

Turn bet is a bluff no? 6max players are stations in 3-bet pots and is never folding an A and obviously not a flush. Only thing you fold out is like KQ. So I just check turn. You have position so he's not going to bluff a ton of rivers and I think vs. most opponents you can just fold river to a bet, he doesn't seem that crazy.

He's never even folding KQ out with a turn bet. We can't ever rep an ace here credibly, it just doesn't make sense.

I really don't like the preflop call. I'm all for mixing it up occasionally and do funky stuff and own people's souls, but you should be very wary to do it with hands that will get you into lots of trouble postflop, like this one, where you find yourself with top pair in a 3-bet pot that you will have to bluff in order to win.

I'm trying to get my vs3-betcall% down to 25%, and that means that I'm folding most PPs, any ace worse than AQ, and any suited connector below JTs. I don't think I'm missing much value from being a nit when I'm 3-bet. If I have an opponent who's way out line with 3-bets versus me, I'll just tighten up my own opening range and abuse the crap out of him that way.

F Paulsson said:

If I have an opponent who's way out line with 3-bets versus me, I'll just tighten up my own opening range and abuse the crap out of him that way.

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So, lets say that your BB is a 3betting machine(or the button when you are CO I guess). Does this mean you stop stealing? Wouldnt it be better to just leave the table instead of tightening your ranges? What do you do if there is one of those lovely 82/4/1 who limp/call 75% of the time to your right and a aggro to your left?

I am sure your agruement is better than mine here I am just trying to pick your brain, it seems 4betting light>not raising in most situations against a high% 3 better. I do agree calling shouldnt be much of a standard play though with these kind of holdings.

Well that would depend on your opponent's Ft4bet. Generally most don't fold to 4bet well, so I'm widening my 4bet/call off range, flatting hands like KJs and stacking TP, flatting those same hands and shoving lots of flops, and still 4bet bluffing some.

Usually leaving is probably best, but if the value of the fish outweighs the value lost by having this solid player behind us, then we stay obv.

widowmaker89 said:

So, lets say that your BB is a 3betting machine(or the button when you are CO I guess). Does this mean you stop stealing? Wouldnt it be better to just leave the table instead of tightening your ranges? What do you do if there is one of those lovely 82/4/1 who limp/call 75% of the time to your right and a aggro to your left?

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Even the wildest 3-bettors (not including maniacs here, but the argument likely extends) don't typically 3-bet more than, say, 25%. And that's really wild over a large sample. In fact, I don't think I've played anyone with a 3-betting stat that large for more than a few orbits (the most likely scenario is that they're normally 3-betting light but get a few good hands early on so the stat is skewed upwards and then normalizes after awhile).

But against someone like that, I easily trim off the bottom part of my range. Exactly what I trim off depends to some minor extent on how he reacts to 4-bets, and largely on what he does when he doesn't 3-bet (does he fold often but 3-bets when he doesn't?), but what I do is I open up my 4-bets-with-the-intention-of-getting-it-in range to 99+, AQs+,AKo. That's a little over 4%, and if I sink my stealing down to 20% or so, that's definitely enough to still make a very healthy profit on the button, especially if it's just a matter of time before we stack him.

I've all but stopped 4-betting light with 100BB stacks. Too many people rebluff with 5bets and if they do that even rarely, the play really isn't all that profitable, if at all.

There's no shame in tightening up when you deal with an overaggressive opponent. The way to beat them generally is to play big pots with better hands, not to try to outwrestle them.

ChuckTs said:

Well that would depend on your opponent's Ft4bet. Generally most don't fold to 4bet well

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F Paulsson said:

Too many people rebluff with 5bets

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Either you guys are playing some hyper aggro games or you run into big hands a lot. 4-bet bluffing frequent 3-bettors is massively +EV, and once they catch you (i.e. you instamuck vs. their shove) they generally tighten up their 3-betting range.

When you say "too many people rebluff" do you know for a fact they are bluffing?

It's massively profitable if you play a 19/16 style and they believe you. If you're 24/21 and have a similar game to them, they rebluff like crazy.

Well, I play 23/19 these days, so that can't be the whole story. How do you know they rebluff like crazy? Do you often call their 5-bets and they turn over trash?

Chris_TC said:

Well, I play 23/19 these days, so that can't be the whole story. How do you know they rebluff like crazy? Do you often call their 5-bets and they turn over trash?

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Since I'm basically done 4-bet bluffing, I'm now down to calling with my entire range when the other guy shoves, and yeah - there's a lot of trash. I mean, not from the usual 21/18 regs, but the guys who 3-bet 18%+ of the time.