$20000 NLHE 6-max: Did i lost the control?

  • Thread starter Killingperfection
  • Start date
Killingperfection

Killingperfection

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Jun 1, 2014
Total posts
5
Chips
0
Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 28/21/3.12

full tilt poker $100/$200 6-max cash game
Villain is been in this game for a while, he is probably a rich bussines men who enjoy playing high stakes and gamble. He is in his third buy-in for $10K, he got broke when he got in with a gutshot on the turn vs a set, called a shove with AK high on a double paired board, the fact is that he had just 5-bet shoved over me with 5h4c, i called with KsKd, and he got there with a club flush, so i was a little angry about him. Maybe that because i end doing what i did.
On this hand he was about $20K.
UTG:$ 18.904,36
MP:$ 34,564,00
Hero:$ 30,110,87
Villain:$ 19, 412,24
SB: 26,034,30
BB:$42,818,94
Two folds, Hero raises $600 with Ad4h, villain calls, both blinds fold.
Flop
5c3c2d
Hero bets $1118,40, villain calls.
Turn
Ks
Hero bets $2048,90, villain calls.
River
5s
Hero checks, villain bets $3200, hero checkeaises shove, villain calls and shows 22 for a boat.
I knew i made a mistake, i was angry and let it dominate my mind, but since i don't think bet fold this river would be good, i would like to know if you would do the same or just check call that looked weak for me.
Any sugestion is welcome
Time to refocus and study my game until i get calm and feel better to come back to the table
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
There's zero chance you should be playing in this game. Move down to NL50 or lower.
 
A

aznman08

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 17, 2007
Total posts
357
Chips
0
Do we expect that villain will call enough K-x, 5-x combos where this becomes profitable? Looks like villain prefers to follow more than lead.
 
JPoling

JPoling

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
May 13, 2014
Total posts
756
Chips
0
I just dont see how shoving in this spot is profitable. Especially since villian had only about 20K starting stack, you only had about $3700 in the hand on river. Also, villian followed you the whole way and you check and he comes out betting. Now i would from villians point think your check came off weak...which im not sure if that is what you intended. But ok, you check, he bets 3200. Really withthat board and bet on river, id be thinking either flatting or folding. No reason to really re-raise on river, let alone shove. Idk just my opinion.
 
akaRobbo

akaRobbo

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Total posts
656
Chips
0
Villain even gave you a chance to fold let alone call. Sorry, the shove is just madness.
 
Killingperfection

Killingperfection

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Jun 1, 2014
Total posts
5
Chips
0
There's zero chance you should be playing in this game. Move down to NL50 or lower.
I cant agree that, i play for a live, so i cant play NL50 unless i play up to 20 tables, and i don't want that and i manage my bankroll properly, to only thing is that i got tilted after get suck out and let this dominate me, however i can afford for that and come back to my normal stakes playing the best game i can, i just need to put my head back in the game.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Total posts
2,994
Chips
0
shove is nowhere near madness, super obv value spot given who we're playing against

but seriously if you're posting this for people's opinions and are mad about someone sucking out on your KK then you really shouldn't be playing anywhere near this high
 
Lmbeach

Lmbeach

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 19, 2013
Total posts
27
Chips
0
Ignoring that the actual limit is about my entire bankroll, wither the river over shove makes sense or not depends on the player. hands he could have that has a 5 in them includes like 45, 56, A5s, etc given the general way you describe this guy. he can obviously have 55, 33, 22 as well. He may have some junk air, but that doesn't really matter here.

I think your plan was to look like you missed a club draw (which is probably more likely than you flopping the straight with A4o) and get him to call off the rest with 'some king' or a pair 66-?? that didn't 3bet pre in addition to any 5x he may have. I suppose he can have some Kx in his range that he just decided to float with that he would bet river and also sometimes look you up light with, but again, this player has to be pretty bad. That's why we want to play against bad players though, they will make terrible decisions! We just have to be willing (able?) to take advantage of it.

If we can assume he will call the shove with 45/56/A5/55/33/22 then we have almost 80% equity against him, if he can only have the suited variants then we still have about 75% against him. If he will only call with a boat, then the plan was terrible and we should have check/folded or check/called, depending on how aggressive he had been.

I play mostly live and I feel like I see a lot of spots like this, for what that's worth.
 
F

Falcon1803

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Total posts
105
Chips
0
Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 28/21/3.12

Full Tilt poker $100/$200 6-max cash game
Villain is been in this game for a while, he is probably a rich bussines men who enjoy playing high stakes and gamble. He is in his third buy-in for $10K, he got broke when he got in with a gutshot on the turn vs a set, called a shove with AK high on a double paired board, the fact is that he had just 5-bet shoved over me with 5h4c, i called with KsKd, and he got there with a club flush, so i was a little angry about him. Maybe that because i end doing what i did.
On this hand he was about $20K.
UTG:$ 18.904,36
MP:$ 34,564,00
Hero:$ 30,110,87
Villain:$ 19, 412,24
SB: 26,034,30
BB:$42,818,94
Two folds, Hero raises $600 with Ad4h, villain calls, both blinds fold.
Flop
5c3c2d
Hero bets $1118,40, villain calls.
Turn
Ks
Hero bets $2048,90, villain calls.
River
5s
Hero checks, villain bets $3200, hero checkeaises shove, villain calls and shows 22 for a boat.
I knew i made a mistake, i was angry and let it dominate my mind, but since i don't think bet fold this river would be good, i would like to know if you would do the same or just check call that looked weak for me.
Any sugestion is welcome
Time to refocus and study my game until i get calm and feel better to come back to the table
I would never open A4o from the CO knowing that a fishy player sits on the button and might easily call you and you end up with a shitty hand OOP. Fold pre - my choice.
As to reraising river - I agree, it is villain dependent. If he can call with 66+ or any 5 or a K that floated you - raise is ok. You couldn't put him on a set on the flop or the turn because most people would raise their sets on such a wet board with a flush draw. I would probably play the river in the same way
 
H

Henreiman

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 17, 2008
Total posts
560
Chips
0
To all of you calling this shove madness, telling him to fold pre, advising him to move down...this is all wrong. He can play the stakes he wants, he seems to be rolled for it. Raising pre is insta A4os c/o 6 way. River is an obv value spot unless you expect him to be slowplaying sets/2p on obv turn c/r spots 100% of the time, and discount all other hands in his range.

I actually like the check on the river. We rep a mid-pair as I think we go for thin-value b/f with a K, and I'm almost expecting him to bluff missed 4s and club draws - more to the point, I think the likelihood of him bluffing or going for value with Kx is much more than him calling a third bet with lower pairs. And I think he just calls with 5x if we triple barrel, so the c/r actually could get him to call with 5x if he is that fishy. Just a cooler IMO
 
suby_rafael

suby_rafael

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 24, 2014
Total posts
1,039
Chips
0
yes i do think you did lose control of your emotions and you so desperately wanted to get villain's money that you made an overconfident move depicting that your previous loss to him got you when he gave you a bad beat. You should not let such situations affect your play any further and it is important to put them behind you. had you bet the river for value you would have got raised a little bit but still i think you would have a lot of chips left had you called this raise. Instead you checked which i thought was a conservative but one can understand since the river paired the board. But instead of raising for value you went over the top to shove all in which was really unnecessary. So you yourself are to blame for losing control.
 
H

hffjd2000

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 6, 2014
Total posts
2,329
Chips
0
Wew. Your stake is really high.

Anyway, yes surely emotions got you there because of his previous 54 win over your KK.

My analysis on his previous hands: complex persona - he is LA and LP. Meaning he can call you down with something and can 4bet or 5bet you with anything. He is a fighter and a fish for short. He is really rich and wants to gamble even chasing his gutshot in an allin situation.

You cant bluff that kind of player sir.
 
S

swingro

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 13, 2010
Total posts
1,634
Chips
0
I do not know how good of a player are you but the proper BR for 20000NL isn't something like 2 millions +?
I think fish are fish at any lvl. Postflop I think it was okay untill the river. He became active all of the sudden when river paired. I think a call was required but not a shove.
Problem is preflop. Fish at the Button and you at CO. This thing alone would make me leave the table imediatly.
Suppose he is really bad so that it could be +EV to stay. All the books i read specify to play less hands from the bottom part of my range when i have a bad player in my left.
 
Last edited:
loafes

loafes

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 16, 2013
Total posts
1,049
Chips
0
I do not know how good of a player are you but the proper BR for 20000NL isn't something like 2 millions +?

100+ buy ins is for tournaments. For cash you can play even for a living on the lower levels with 30 as you move up and if you're professional you should be a little more conservative. But for 20knl a bankroll of 800k-1.6mil should be sufficient for a player who has an edge over the level, at any rate it's enough to drop down when necessary. Of course some players should use more depending on style and comfort level. It's still a lot of money at any rate.
 
U

Ubercroz

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Total posts
653
Chips
0
Is this just a bad beat story?

If you play these stakes for a living then this should be pretty straight forward. I'm just not sure what analysis there is to be had.

You raised pre and I guess did it becausr you felt you were ahead of his calling range. That's fine.

You bet the flop with the nuts, that's fine.

You bet the turn with the nuts, that's fine.

You bet the river with a strong hand because you were on tilt, that's not fine.

I saw no real thought about his range or his line. I saw no reason to think he was bluffing. I just saw a player on tilt shove.

Again, if you play for a living at these stakes, I would hope you knew you were shoving for value and that he would call with enough of his range.

If you don't have a good reason, move down in stakes. I hope you don't need $600 an hour to support your livelyhood if you can get by with less, then play lower stakes.

EDIT- if your winning at these stakes, then keep doing it. I just have some doubts.
 
R

rw11687

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
May 21, 2012
Total posts
312
Chips
0
There's zero chance you should be playing in this game. Move down to NL50 or lower.

I'll be honest.....I have seen a lot of comments in this nature (from various members) and it seems odd. Is it really necessary to be that disrespectful to people? Can't you find a way to make your point without coming across as a dick? Don't get me wrong, its necessary sometimes. But in this example, and many others I have seen, it just doesnt seem to me some of you are all that kind.

And how did you come to this determination? Based on your opinion of one HH? Or was it based on his 5 posts that give a proper insight to what type of player he is?
 
U

Ubercroz

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Total posts
653
Chips
0
I'll be honest.....I have seen a lot of comments in this nature (from various members) and it seems odd. Is it really necessary to be that disrespectful to people? Can't you find a way to make your point without coming across as a dick? Don't get me wrong, its necessary sometimes. But in this example, and many others I have seen, it just doesnt seem to me some of you are all that kind.

And how did you come to this determination? Based on your opinion of one HH? Or was it based on his 5 posts that give a proper insight to what type of player he is?

The one post is actually pretty telling.

There is a certain lack of analysis that were involved in it, and that leads some of us to believe that he is lacking some skills to be playing there.

What many people have found, over time, is that the only way to tell people they are playing at the wrong stakes is to say it bluntly.

To be fair, you should be coming to a poker forum for brutal honesty and opinion so that you stop making the same dumb mistakes and begin to realize how deep the game is, not for kindness.

Its peoples money, they can play at whatever stakes they want. But if they play like a fish and complain about the fish, then everyone here has the right to call them a fish, even if its not kind.
 
C

CrushingSouls

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Total posts
44
Chips
0
To the OP. On the river you should be check calling, bet calling (maybe) if you have a good read, or bet folding. Personally id go with check calling. But if he outright jams then thats when your put to a very tough decision.
 
R

rw11687

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
May 21, 2012
Total posts
312
Chips
0
The one post is actually pretty telling.

There is a certain lack of analysis that were involved in it, and that leads some of us to believe that he is lacking some skills to be playing there.

What many people have found, over time, is that the only way to tell people they are playing at the wrong stakes is to say it bluntly.

To be fair, you should be coming to a poker forum for brutal honesty and opinion so that you stop making the same dumb mistakes and begin to realize how deep the game is, not for kindness.

Its peoples money, they can play at whatever stakes they want. But if they play like a fish and complain about the fish, then everyone here has the right to call them a fish, even if its not kind.

I by no means think anyone should lie or not be straight forward, but there can be a little more respect shown in how you talk to someone. You can accomplish the same thing, and in many ways more effectively, by stating things in a manner that people are more accepting to. Speaking with respect is not speaking without impact - you can accomplish both, without question.

To your point, I agree that you come to a forum to learn and should expect criticism, but that doesnt mean it has to be disrespectful. And the original post I referenced doesnt actually "teach" anything. To bluntly state he has no means to play at those levels without offering any analysis or explanation as to why isnt helping anyone.

One HH is nothing - constructively criticize the hand in question, not the person or player as a whole. Don't I always read on here that players stats can be mis-leading because of the sample size? Does that not apply here too?
 
akaRobbo

akaRobbo

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Total posts
656
Chips
0
I'll be honest.....I have seen a lot of comments in this nature (from various members) and it seems odd. Is it really necessary to be that disrespectful to people? Can't you find a way to make your point without coming across as a dick? Don't get me wrong, its necessary sometimes. But in this example, and many others I have seen, it just doesnt seem to me some of you are all that kind.

And how did you come to this determination? Based on your opinion of one HH? Or was it based on his 5 posts that give a proper insight to what type of player he is?

He shoved over the top of a river bet with not even the nut straight onto a paired board. He needs to be told straight (lol) how dumb this was. Tbh, he should be questioning himself he should be playing these limits also, if running flushes are going to tilt him and he does nothing about the tilt.

If you look how many posts some of these guys who you claim are coming across as dicks, you'll notice they're experienced players who will have seen it many times before. They're not just out to put people down.
 
R

rw11687

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
May 21, 2012
Total posts
312
Chips
0
He shoved over the top of a river bet with not even the nut straight onto a paired board. He needs to be told straight (lol) how dumb this was. Tbh, he should be questioning himself he should be playing these limits also, if running flushes are going to tilt him and he does nothing about the tilt.

If you look how many posts some of these guys who you claim are coming across as dicks, you'll notice they're experienced players who will have seen it many times before. They're not just out to put people down.

To be clear, I am not saying it was a good play, or that someone shouldn't be questioning his play/limits. And I am not saying that the people being dicks are not experience or don't know what they are talking about. I think there are a lot of people here that can give great advice and help others. But if the intent IS to help others, people need to understand that there is a much better way to get people to listen and understand you - treat people with the decency and respect that they deserve.

Example:

A - Your an idiot and shouldn't be playing these limits.

B - That wasn't the smartest decision and here's why: (present reasoning here). To take the next step in your game, you need to understand this. You should probably step down a level or two until you have this concept down, as players at these stakes are too advanced for this kind of mistake.

Now, which one would you be more receiving to, A or B?

My point isnt to pat him on the back and say "its ok, thats just bad luck". My point is that getting your point across is much more effective if presented in a respectful manner.
 
Top