$2000 NLHE 6-max: What would you do here?

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WossaPotOddz

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$2000 NL HE 6-max: What would you do here?

I've got into a discussion on another forum about this hand. The poster had got into a discussion on another forum with the same hand lol. Follow?
I know it's a tournament hand but it's deep stacked and it's $2500 FTOP 6-max and have a feeling the responses in the ring game part of the forum will be more analytical.


full tilt poker Game #14048673473: FTOPS Event #22 (96538219), Table 127 - 10/20 - No Limit Hold'em - 14:29:35 ET - 2009/08/15
Seat 1: ATM4Life (5,730)
Seat 2: Jims619 (5,345)
Seat 3: elanor (5,910), is sitting out
Seat 4: IfHeDiesHeDies (7,290)
Seat 5: benba (5,915)
Seat 6: MMaDD MMaXX (5,810)
MMaDD MMaXX posts the small blind of 10
ATM4Life posts the big blind of 20
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Jims619 Kd Ks
Jims619 raises to 60
elanor folds
IfHeDiesHeDies raises to 180
benba has 15 seconds left to act
benba raises to 440
MMaDD MMaXX folds
ATM4Life folds
Jims619 has 15 seconds left to act
Jims619 has requested TIME
Jims619 calls 380
IfHeDiesHeDies has 15 seconds left to act
IfHeDiesHeDies has requested TIME
IfHeDiesHeDies calls 260
*** FLOP *** 5c 8d 9h
Jims619 checks
IfHeDiesHeDies checks
benba has 15 seconds left to act
benba bets 875
Jims619 has 15 seconds left to act
Jims619 has requested TIME
Jims619 calls 875
IfHeDiesHeDies folds
*** TURN *** 5c 8d 9h 2d
Jims619 has 15 seconds left to act
Jims619 has requested TIME
Jims619 checks
benba has 15 seconds left to act
benba bets 2,000
Jims619 has 15 seconds left to act
Jims619 has requested TIME
Jims619 ???

ive been pretty aggro opening a lot of pots in position already in 1st level, trying to see flops etc....pretty sure 1st guys 3bet range is really wide....no reads on the cold 4bettor other than he has a ftops jersey

Ok guys lets see you get your teeth into this...

This is from the $2500 ftops 6max. Hero is a friend of mine and is a v v v good player. Villain is also v good and is an ftops winner. This hand is brilliant for discussion imo and has caused a lot of debate on a forum im on.

What do we do and why?
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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You're asking us to look at it purely as a 300bb deep ring hand in a vacuum?

I'd like to know hero's reasoning for check/calling flop and then checking turn. If he checks the turn and then waits for the bet to make a decision, then I think he's misplayed it. He should know before checking the turn if he's planning on check-raising all-in, folding or calling. The decision point, in other words, is not after the other guy bets on the turn, it's before hero checks at all. Playing deep, to a larger extent than playing at 100bb or less, is about planning several streets ahead. If he suddenly wakes up on the turn and finds that he has to make a decision for half his stack then his flop actions makes no sense. What did he expect would happen when he check/called the flop? Hoping for a cheap showdown? Surely he must at least have considered the idea of a turn bet?

... and if he HAD considered the idea of a turn bet, I'd like to know what his plan was and why he was thinking that way. It's near impossible to jump into the middle of an unorthodox betting line and be asked to take it from there.
 
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You're asking us to look at it purely as a 300bb deep ring hand in a vacuum?

You have the same info as everyone else. Hero's been aggressive, button is a good player and it's the 1st level of the tournament.
 
Nexar

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I would've re-re-raise preflop to win the pot immediately in case of mid or premium pairs. In case of getting called I would've bet a little more than half the pot. And i think thats the end of the scenario; considering that your friend was in first position and opened 3x the big blind means you have something somehow strong (because in 6 handed the requirements go down), ifhedies reraise indicates probably premium unpaired cards and benbas reraise indicate a premium pair probably, I think your friend should've re-re-raise benbas to ''prove that his typical 3BB raise is actually a monster hand. note that if the villian had called and an ace hit the flop it's a different story.
 
F Paulsson

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You have the same info as everyone else.

Yeah, I get that. But unless you can tell me what the purpose of the line taken was, I think discussing the turn decision to call, fold or shove is silly. We're told that hero is a "v v v good" player, and if so, I must assume that he's had some sort of a thought process throughout this hand. If it makes sense to others to discuss the fifth decision without understanding the reasoning behind the first four, then good for them, but it doesn't to me.

But fine, I'll make an effort:

Our least attractive option is shoving (because he's either bluffing or he has us beat), followed by calling (because we think he's aggressive enough to bluff not only here but also the river) finally followed by folding (if we think he's honest).
 
Z

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A lot comes down to our perceived read on the 4 bettor, which kind of sucks because apparently we don't really have one.

On one hand, we've been active early so we are prone to get 3 bet light which in turn can lead 4 betting villain to 4 bet light bc he knows other player is 3 betting light bc your so active blah blah blah, and we could be miles ahead.

On the other hand we have 300 BBs in a super slow structure, are we really going to stack off to Aces here?

Let's start from the beginning and work our way up.

Preflop: Open is standard, we then get 3 and 4 bet back to us.

Has there been frequent 3 and 4 betting thusfar? My experience with deepstacked tournaments is at the first level or two there is little to no 3 betting and 4 betting is almost non exsistent w/o AA or KK. People dislike 3 betting bc of the deep stacks and don't want to reveal their hand as a big pair and thus face tough decisions on tricky boards for deep stacks postflop. People routinely flat QQ and AK and then play pot control on the flop if all they have is 1 pair. Has this table been following the mantra? If so, as sick as it sounds we have to give folding some thought pre. If not, then we're obviously continuing so the next question is what's our plan. We can flat the 4 bet, small 5 bet with the intentions of folding to a shove, small 5 bet with the intentions of calling a shove, or pot sized 5 bet/shove ourselves.

IMO the best option here is just calling, although it's certainly not the easiest option. We could small 5 bet to like 1380 or something and fold to a shove but this doesn't really accomplish much other than "try" and find out if 4 bettor has aces or not since we expect him to chuck everything but them to this 5 bet...but in turn we're also bluffing with KK preflop with this play. I dislike small 5 bet/calling or PSB 5 bet/shoving bc I just don't think anything other than AA is going to call or shove unless we have some reason to think otherwise.

Flop: If we do just call we now have a tough decision ahead of us. If the flop comes out rags we know opponent is going to bet, we're OOP and still deep. We obviously didn't call pre to set mine so we're continuing obviously, but whats our line. c/c or c/r? Again it comes down to opponent, if we C/R a 9 high board how is going to play JJ or QQ? What if we c/c then check the turn? Would he check or bet with QQ/JJ? The answers to these questions determine our course of action.

Blind to any other information, I probably play the hand as played and then c/f the turn if he puts in another bet (putting him on AA). We still have plenty of room to manuever. Yes its crucial to gain chips and a double up this early would be enourmous for us, but unless I have reason to assume otherwise, from my experience at deep stacked tournies in low blind levels people do not blow up pots with QQ or JJ, particularly after we've shown strength (UTG raise and 4 bet cold call, then call on flop). I think QQ/JJ check behind a whole lot on the turn.

If villain is very good and knows that we are also, we could be getting leveled by a JJ/QQ bluff, expecting to get us off of QQ/KK here since we know that he won't bet without AA blah blah blah, but I'll exclude that situation for now.

Ugh... now that I've just written that Im pounding my head telling myself its a 6 max tourny and 1 guy is sitting out so it's effectively 5 handed! Jesus, Im treating this as a 9 max table.......I think we might have to stack off now? Meh I dunno

I'd love to hear other's thoughts though
 
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I can't for the life of me figure out why he would be playing so passively after the flop. I think he should donk or check raise. Hero is trapping himself with the check call since by the turn he has already lost total control of the hand. where does he expect this to go?

Possibly another raise pre flop would have been a better strategy?

This is a short game. I think he has to fold or shove based on what we know about the other player. It is not gonna take much of a raise to be committed.

Yuk. \

I will think about this hand more after dinner.
 
StormRaven

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Hero is utg, I don't like the preflop bet unless he was planning to come over the top to a raise. A raise did occur and hero only smooth calls - why? Are you inviting 10 10 - QQ or AK - AJsu to get in the pot with you and flop an A?
I definitely do not like checking the flop unless the intent was to do a healthy size check raise. If villain does have a ppr you are giving this person a chance (albeit small) to catch a set, hero has also relinquished pot control by checking here and not check raising. I hate the check on the turn, again, control relinquished, even if the outcome is the villain had A8su and was betting hard due to the possible straight and flush draws why give the villain a chance to catch up. 2K is above what I am sure hero expected a bet to be - this happened because hero relinquished control. Maybe villain put hero on AK-AJ and figures he missed the flop, bet out with his 22 then turns the set? Too many possibilities here and hero played this poorly from the get go, even if we find out hero had best hand and wins the pot, I still will believe this was played poorly.
It is well known that premium ppr's are best for taking down small pots and losing large ones. Why are we taking so many risks?
 
vanquish

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pretty sure you have to shove, i don't really see a better play
 
BelgoSuisse

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Sorry, can't read the unconverted hands. My eyes hurt immediately. Will post comments later on.

Full Tilt Poker FTOPS Event #22 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t10/t20 Blinds - 6 players - View hand 237602
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

BB: t5730 M = 191
Hero (UTG): t5345 M = 178.17
MP: t5910 M = 197
CO: t7290 M = 243
BTN: t5915 M = 197.17
SB: t5810 M = 193.67

Hero is dealt K:diamond: K:spade:

Pre Flop: (t30)
Hero raises to t60, 1 fold, CO raises to t180, BTN raises to t440, 2 folds, Hero calls t380, CO calls t260

Flop: 5:club: 8:diamond: 9:heart: (t1350) (3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, BTN bets t875, Hero calls t875, CO folds

Turn: 2:diamond: (t3100) (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets t2000, Hero ?
 
BelgoSuisse

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Why are we min-raising preflop? Why is BTN making his 4bet so small? Is this standard in deep stacked tournaments?

I understand flatting preflop if we think villain folds QQ- and AK to a 5bet this deep. But this might be a little conservative when we play 5handed. The problem, though, is that we end up oop with an OP and a SPR that's a little high to stack unimproved. Hence my question why we decided to minbet preflop.

I'm not quite sure what your goal becomes on the flop. Are you trying to extract as much as possible from JJ-QQ or are you going to avoid losing to AA? I guess this is extremely villain dependent.

At some point we need to decide if villain is nitty enough for most of his range to be AA or not. I would probably shove the turn but that's because i hate torunaments and doubling up or busting appears a lot more attractive to me than going on with a medium stack.

And if we stack and he shows up with 88, we sucked big time in our preflop play.
 
benevg

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Belgo, not to sound picky, but we don't min-raise preflop, it is a 3BB raise :) blinds are 10/20, the total pot so far is 30, our bet is 60.

i still don't like not-5-betting preflop, and i still shove this turn and hope he shows with QQ, or better still, folds whatever he has... (though that would be weird)
 
BelgoSuisse

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Belgo, not to sound picky, but we don't min-raise preflop, it is a 3BB raise :) blinds are 10/20, the total pot so far is 30, our bet is 60.

Oops, sorry. My bad.
 
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With deep stacks and a slow blind structure do you guys really think a good player is betting QQ or JJ on this turn after we've flatted a 4 bet after opening UTG then called his flop bet? How often? If he does do you really think he is calling a shove? What does he give you?
 
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I agree villain wouldn't take this line with QQ/JJ on the turn, and tbh I don't think villain would 4bet them pre-flop either.

My personal opinion was to call turn then check/fold river because villain either has AA or air, no other hand fits the line. I figured villain wouldn't 3 barrel with air so calling the turn would be for value. But it's such a sick spot because then you're almost valued in to calling the river....but he's gotta have aces...

The actual player in this hand opted to fold turn saying, he was check/calling flop with the intention of check/folding the turn.

Some other responses have been to fold pre-flop (good players), and 5bet/call (not very good players)
 
dj11

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Hate to make assumptions but because you seem to know a lot about the participants, I will assume all 3 of the players at the flop have hands on the others. IfHeDiesHedies bows out and he was probably holding QQ/JJ/TT (my guess).

The buy-in for this game suggests these guys know a bit about the game and I might not want to discount the possibility of either one opening with 67, and has hit gold. Since both are described as good, and this is a deepstacked game, I'd put an agro with 6-7 about equal to him having AA. Both highly unlikely (IMO).

Preflop betting was crazy, but again, this is deepstacked, and early and everyone might figure they know how to back down.

The turn card doesn't figure to have helped villain.

I cant help but think that if villain really had this hand he would bet lighter to keep us in here.

I'll take the bad player line here, wince my eyes and shove, most of the time. But if I had reads/stats on villain, that could change.
 
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I assure you I know nothing about the participants. It would serve me better to share any info I have so that it may contribute to the discussion.

You would take the bad player line and 5bet/call or shove pre-flop?
 
vanquish

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I assure you I know nothing about the participants. It would serve me better to share any info I have so that it may contribute to the discussion.

You would take the bad player line and 5bet/call or shove pre-flop?

dude you're framing this hand really poorly

" OK GUISE THESE GUYS ARE ALL REALLY GOOD AND THE PLAYERS KNOW EACH OTHER AND ALSO I DISCUSSED THIS HAND AND THE SMART ONES SAID TO FOLD KK PREFLOP IN A TOURNAMENT REALLY DEEP (ALSO WE KNOW THE BOARD COMES OUT REALLY WET AND COORDINATED AND WE DONT IMPROVE) AND THE BAD ONES SAID TO GO ALL IN SO WHAT WOULD U DO"

like alright, if ur gonna frame it like that, i guess i must be a bad player, but like wtf, the information we have is really ambiguous and a lot of it is misleading


also it's a tournament hand applied to ring dynamics (which doesn't make much sense since tournaments are more about folding out hands whereas ring games are more about getting paid off)


sorry for being more of a buzzkill than buzz killington but that's kinda how i feel about this thread
 
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I didn'y mean shoving the turn was bad i meant shoving all in pre-flop

edit - also why are people complaining about not having enough information. You have the same information as everyone else, including the players in the hand!! What more do you want? I posted an interesting hand history and all anyone's done is gone, oh there's not enough information so i'm not happy.

Zybomb answered it in a concise way going from street to street analysing the situation and coming to a conclusion. If nobody else wants to do that then don't post here complaining about me posting a hand ok.
 
Poker Orifice

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Hero is utg, I don't like the preflop bet unless he was planning to come over the top to a raise. A raise did occur and hero only smooth calls - why? Are you inviting 10 10 - QQ or AK - AJsu to get in the pot with you and flop an A?
. Maybe villain put hero on AK-AJ and figures he missed the flop, bet out with his 22 then turns the set? quote]

AJ is going to flat a 4-bet out of position in early levels of a $2,500 buyin?? Umm.... I don't think so.
Ducks are gonna bloat up the pot with a 4-bet & set mine w/o imp. odds at start of a $2,500 buyin? I really doubt it.
Fear of giving someone a free card because they might hit a 2outer for a set? THis wasn't the Fulltilt Daily $1.
 
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Zybomb answered it in a concise way going from street to street analysing the situation and coming to a conclusion. If nobody else wants to do that then don't post here complaining about me posting a hand ok.

Seriously.

Im not saying my conclusion is correct. I can certainly see not folding being fine if it is backed by some logic, but all of the "I HAVE KK IM ALL IN" crowd doesn't seem to provide any logic for their moves beyond level 1 thinking (what do I have?). The AJ and 22 example is outrageous. This 4 bet pre/flop bet/turn bet is AJ or 22 approximately ZERO PERCENT OF THE TIME. Thats right ZERO PERCENT. IMO Villains range after betting the turn is AA or middle suited connectors if he's aggro and bluffs a lot and believes we can lay down. Competent villains are not betting JJ or QQ on this turn, unless they put us on exactly QQ/KK and believe we will lay down and they are good enough both to 1) turn their hand into a bluff and 2) know that we will fold QQ or KK here.

Defending our hand from 2 outs by bluff shoving is moronic btw (aka we can only be called if beat and we are protecting ourselves from a 5% hand)

I was hoping for more analysis along the same lines as mine, regardless if people came to the same conclusion I did (in fact Id prefer they didnt so we can expand our game with good discussion)

Don't mean to come off as a tool to some, but if you say check raise all in on the flop, or 5 bet shove pre or whatever PLEASE include what you put him on and what you intend to be called by that we beat
 
F Paulsson

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"No one else"?

Our least attractive option is shoving (because he's either bluffing or he has us beat), followed by calling (because we think he's aggressive enough to bluff not only here but also the river) finally followed by folding (if we think he's honest).

And it still makes very little sense to me to "discuss" a line that's 6 decisions deep without justification for the first five. I'm not saying that because I'm a grumpy man, I'm saying it because it's much more instructive to argue a thought process than to guess at motives. And guessing is all we're doing. Yeah, my guess was (and was apparently correct) that he was planning to check/fold the turn. But what did I learn from that? I learned that our hero thought that our villain's range was completely polarized and that bluffs were a sufficiently small part of it.

Stopping the action when facing the preflop 4-bet and asking what our line should be, what our plan for the flop, turn and river should be is one way of doing it. Stopping it on the flop - maybe even after being faced with a bet - is another. But stopping once we've reached the decision point where we have to commit or not commit is too late to be instructive. We know already on the flop that we're going to be facing a commitment decision at some point very soon. "How do we plan around committing" is a good question to ask.

That said, I appreciate people posting hands. I would have hoped that you would also appreciate feedback on how to make the most out of hands posted.
 
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Seriously.

Competent villains are not betting JJ or QQ on this turn, unless they put us on exactly QQ/KK and believe we will lay down and they are good enough both to 1) turn their hand into a bluff and 2) know that we will fold QQ or KK here.

Defending our hand from 2 outs by bluff shoving is moronic btw (aka we can only be called if beat and we are protecting ourselves from a 5% hand)

This is what I thought about the JJ/QQ holdings, the 4bet pre is unlikely enough but betting the turn would be pointless. I'd imagine the optimal line is checking for pot control.

The 4bet preflop, c-bet in 3way pot and 2nd pot commiting bet on the turn = AA or air imo. Villain would have to put us on exactly KK though to bet like this for value on the turn which doesn't make a great deal of sense either. We potentially could flat with QQ/JJ and check/call flop, it's not the greatest line in the world but he can't be 100% sure which leads me more to thinking this could be air a large % of the time.

This is why I suggested calling the turn then check/folding river. It's 2000 into 5150 with 2030 behind.

Villain has to assume we have KK if he has AA, or AA/KK if he has air. He also has to assume we're pot commiting ourselves to calling on the river...?

So he should 3 barrel AA, and check the air.

With it being 2000 into 5150 we need him to have air 28% to make this breakeven....then we have our sick 2-outer...so 32%~ equity in total.

I think our read on whether he has AA depends on how good villain is. If he's a v v v good player like this dude says then we can assign more % to the air, if not then more to the AA.

Marginal stuff.

EDIT - But with us calling the 4bet pre, then check/calling with 1 player left to act who also has to have a polarised range.....maybe it wasn't very difficult to put us on the kings.
 
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Ahhh FP I think i understand where you're coming from. It wasn't just the turn decision I wanted to talk about. It was the entire hand from start to finish beacuse it's quite interesting.

I mean KK in a 4bet 3way pot + 2 barrels check/called deep stacked OOP....there was so much to analyse there when I first saw the hand I thought others might enjoy taking a gander.

But yeah, bet/fold flop? check/raise flop? 5bet pre? shove pre? check/call flop/shove turn? check/call flop/ etc etc and with reasons why we would choose our preferencial line....

Just deciding what to do on the turn is boring and FP, I do appreciate the responses, they help me learn and become a better player!!!
 
F Paulsson

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It was because you asked "what do we do and why" that I recoiled. It's all good.
 
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