$200 NLHE Full Ring: Top pair with Q kicker against strange line

thepokerkid123

thepokerkid123

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Total posts
917
Chips
0
$200 NL HE Full Ring: Top pair with Q kicker against strange line

$1/$2NL live game. I have $600, villain had about $180.


QhJh on the button.

EP raises to $6, villain calls in MP, I call from the button.

Pot: $21

Flop Js9s7c
EP checks, villain bets $6, I raise it to $25, EP folds and villain calls.

Pot: $71
Turn 4h
Villain bets $30, I raise to $70, villain calls.

Pot: $211
River 4c

Villain shoves for about $75 more.


At this point I didn't believe I was ahead of any made hand, but the line just seemed so strange that I was considering my pair of jacks with queen kicker good for bluff catching value.

Clearly the turn/river can't have hit his range, yet he went from the weak flop bet and semi-weak turn bet (possibly a blocking bet) to a river shove? The flop didn't cause any fear (he didn't try to protect his hand), despite being so draw heavy which means either he had a hand that wasn't affraid of being drawn out on or was drawing. If he was drawing, my jacks are good.
 
F

fighter

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 26, 2009
Total posts
41
Chips
0
75 dollars to win 286. You only have to be right 27% of the time for this to be a call.

If you are not good here 1/4 of the time, Why are you raising the turn ?
 
B

brett987

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 18, 2008
Total posts
71
Chips
0
yea but those are good pot odds....i would bet 75 to win 286 anytimee i dont understand why you would even thinking about calling
 
thepokerkid123

thepokerkid123

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Total posts
917
Chips
0
I said that my opponent took a strange line in this hand.

On the turn they seemed weak, on the river they showed strength that was consistent only with a bluff or a slow played monster.

What would you have done on the turn, given the way the hand had played out up until the $30 turn bet?
I don't see any other option, folding is bad considering how little strength my opponent has shown, and calling is bad because the most reasonable hand I can put them on at this stage is a draw. By making my raise so small, I did price in draws but figured $70 was a better price than $30 for him to chase.

You're right that I only have to be ahead 1/4 of the time to call on the river, but that doesn't mean I'm blindly paying him off if he does have me beat.
 
thepokerkid123

thepokerkid123

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Total posts
917
Chips
0
yea but those are good pot odds....i would bet 75 to win 286 anytimee i dont understand why you would even thinking about calling

I assume you meant folding?

You're right, $75 to win $286 is giving very good odds. But what hand do you put this opponent on?

Do they really bet $75 into a $211 pot with complete air against someone who has raised them on the flop and on the turn?
 
S93

S93

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Total posts
6,154
Chips
0
If u raise the turn u have to call the river.
Your getting 4-1, all the draws busted and if your hand was strong enough against his range to raise flop/turn its good enough to bluff catch the river.
 
T

TimmyOtool

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 13, 2009
Total posts
95
Chips
0
You could still beat hands like JT (pair + gutshot hands)

But I would have kept the pot a bit smaller with your hand, maybe just call on the turn? maybe just call on the turn?

I think with the way it ended up... you've priced yourself to call...
 
thepokerkid123

thepokerkid123

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Total posts
917
Chips
0
I didn't really consider any kind of pot control on the flop/turn. It could only be done at the cost of not protecting my hand.




My thoughts as this hand played out:

Pre-flop: Either of my cards could easily be dominated, but with the possibility that whichever hits is live and the straight/flush possibility combined with position I called.

Flop: Top pair may be ahead or it may not, lots of draws, could be dangerous pricing out the draws (which I believed had to be done) but the check and weak bet before me led me to believe that I wasn't up against KJ or AJ so I probably had the best made hand, had either of the players lead the betting with a decent sized bet I may have folded but as it was I was confident I was ahead.

Turn: The $30 bet really looks like a draw, I guess I hadn't thought it through far enough that I maybe should have raised it to about $90 since my read was a draw but I still felt a bit weak here with the Q kicker so I only made it $70.

River: Where did that bet come from? The draws all missed... I'm confident that it's not a bluff, I mean, I've never seen a competent player make such a weak bluff into someone who called a pre-flop raise then raised every street. It just didn't fit. It can't be a bluff, no way I could be expected to fold here, even a complete fish doesn't do this (and this guy wasn't a fish, not great but not a fish either), if you jump up and down and wave your hands saying you've got a strong hand twice in a row generally someone is going to get the idea that you like your hand and if the river is a blank, they're not betting into you hoping for a fold - and if they did, they would give off a million tells under that kind of pressure. It didn't take me long to conclude that I wasn't going to be shown a bluff, but I needed to figure out what could take this line other than a bluff.

What made hand bets into me like this? If I make the assumption that he doesn't have a 4 in his hand, I have to put him on something that he slow played. I really don't expect to see KJ or AJ, each of them would have bet into me on the flop (more than $6). J9 is a possibility but I still don't expect to see it, I can see it being in his pre-flop calling range because a $6 pre-flop raise isn't much in this game but I expect to be bet into or raised at some point before the river if I'm up against J9 on this board.
What I'm really thinking is T8s or 77 or 99. There's no way I could have put him on these hands before he bet them but once he did it all started falling into place. I still felt that T8s bets more on the flop looking for value and protection against the flush. These hands all bet into me on the river for fear of me checking behind them, but a bluff doesn't bet into me here.

I turned over the jack and mucked my hand, my opponent turns over pocket jacks. I was a little surprised, I'd only considered 77 and 99 because it had been played so passively (pre-flop I'd have expected it to have been re-raised since $6 is really low). Still, the full house made the most sense and if it was jacks instead of 7's or 9's I figured I was close enough.


I don't believe I'm getting shown a bluff more than 25% of the time here, the way the hand played out it didn't make sense that it could be anything else at first which is why I seriously considered calling. After thinking it through, I thought that I'm up against a full house or straight way more often and folded.
 
Z

Zybomb

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Total posts
372
Chips
0
The flop raise is ok bc he bet so little and the board is wet, but realize we arent necessarily "protecting our hand" since our hand isnt very good to begin with. Just TP with a bad kicker. Flatting is usually much better

On the turn I just dont understand the point of raising again. We have TP3K against a PFR who has shown continued aggression. If hes the type to make stupid bluffs or bet draws in this fashion then flat his bet and let him bluff the river and call down on a blank. If you dont have a read along those lines then fold your hand, its a weak TP against a PFR who is showing interest out of position AFTER youve raised him.
 
M

mrjohnson911

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Total posts
214
Chips
0
I think the flop raise is ok but after he calls you I think its time to slow down... In a way you're trying to win the pot on the river....
i feel a draw would c/c or c/r but not "minbet"/c.... I ve seen people mb/c top sets on drawy boards a lot... also when he leads the turn I dont see why you raise?I dont see a draw playing it that way...

still good fold on the river as the odds are so good...
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
This is a fold on the turn imo. I think flatting and then donking a blank turn shows immense strength, like he wants to keep EP in the hand. Unless you have a strong read that he would semi-bluff then bluff river with a missed draw this way you have to give him credit for a big hand.

Other than JT or TT or AsKs, I don't know what you beat. I do think his turn line is weird but maybe he's the type of guy who wants to see if the flush comes before shoving his nutlike hand.
 
Sean Pilgrim

Sean Pilgrim

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 31, 2009
Total posts
2,620
Chips
0
I said that my opponent took a strange line in this hand.

On the turn they seemed weak, on the river they showed strength that was consistent only with a bluff or a slow played monster.

What would you have done on the turn, given the way the hand had played out up until the $30 turn bet?
I don't see any other option, folding is bad considering how little strength my opponent has shown, and calling is bad because the most reasonable hand I can put them on at this stage is a draw. By making my raise so small, I did price in draws but figured $70 was a better price than $30 for him to chase.

You're right that I only have to be ahead 1/4 of the time to call on the river, but that doesn't mean I'm blindly paying him off if he does have me beat.

Possibly seemed like a set on the flop. That shove on the river with about 1/3rd of the pot seems like he may have been drawing and just calling playing weak incase someone hit their flush, but may have ended up with a boat on the river? I dunno, would have to be there.

I'm putting him on bottom set on the flop. Probably scared of straight draws and flush draws until the board paired on the river.
 
U

Ubercroz

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Total posts
653
Chips
0
I think this is an excellent flop to check. There are so many bad cards to come, your hand is not that strong. There are so many hands that beat you and so many draws you can't price out, if it two over with a flush then its tough to price them out, if they have a straight and flush draw you can't price them out, if they have a better kicker your bluffing. If they have a set you are practically drawing dead. Keep this pot small, you don't have to win every hand your in and making this pot bigger puts you in this crappy situation. Call the flop, your hand is not that strong multiway. Call the turn without a scare card, and consider a fold on the river if more aggression happens. Better to lose a small pot on a wet board than to inflate the pot with a middle srtrength (at best) hand.
 
H

HNRocketS

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2009
Total posts
53
Chips
0
Yah I'm definetely folding the river. He's got us crushed, let's move on to the next hand. You don't want to donate another $75.
 
kadafi

kadafi

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 28, 2007
Total posts
404
Chips
0
Yah I'm definetely folding the river. He's got us crushed, let's move on to the next hand. You don't want to donate another $75.

Hes getting 4 to 1 on a call. Im not saying hes ahead here but considering the pot size I would call this bet. I think its correct to pay the 75 on the river, as played.
 
Top