$200 NLHE Full Ring: small blind preflop spot with loose table

mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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so some dynamics, theres about 7k on the table. a couple of 2k stacks, and none of them are particularly up from how many times they bought in. I have no image since i just sat down and only recognized two of the players.

So i look down at AQs in the SB with a stack of 200 i only cover 1 or 2 players. UTG makes it $8, way too small. gets 6 callers by the time it gets to me. do you flat, or 3 bet and if so, what sizing do you 3bet to and why do you chose to flat or 3bet?

I think i know my answer, but I want to see what you guys say first.
 
Jillychemung

Jillychemung

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I'm 3-betting this to $60, calling any 4-bet over shove, shoving over any 4-bet.

No way I'd flat and play this OOP against 7 others and I'm not folding this.
 
dj11

dj11

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I'd pot it, thing is all those folks will have that nag nag nag thing that they are invested and you still have to play it OOP. <-- leads to just coming along, but that is silly, this situation screams at making a decent attempt to isolate so it might take more than a pot sized bet.

My poker training is more tourney based tho, and Jilly knows better.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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Okay yeah thats what i was thinking. I 3bet to 40 and got 5 calls, which is great if I hit the flop... Even 60 might have been too small. I dont think I agree with calling a 4bet though unless its a minraise
 
J

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Okay yeah thats what i was thinking. I 3bet to 40 and got 5 calls, which is great if I hit the flop... Even 60 might have been too small. I dont think I agree with calling a 4bet though unless its a minraise
You would be wrong to call a 4bet min raise here, if you call you would only have 128 behind and 184+ in the pot. The only 4bet you can call is an all in, else you have to push or fold here.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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yeah, what are players 4betting with that are folding to a 5bet jam though? nothing really. players at live 1/2 do not have a 4bet folding range. when we get 4bet its probably QQ+ and maybe AK. so we're basically looking at what are the odds of hitting an A and then what are the odds of that A being good vs their range. so yeah, i guess you cant even call a min 4bet and 5betting would be suicide without FE
 
J

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You don't re-raise them all in as an attempt to get them to fold, it's to get the money in the pot before they know you hit.
If they have JJ, QQ, or KK and they see an ace on the flop(AK can get away if a Q comes up, etc.), it is easy to fold their hand and save themselves half their stack. Higher chance you won't see an ace on the flop, so they will get whatever they raise if you call because you will instantly fold(therefor burning money). With your hand and based on the pot equity, it is a push or fold situation if you want to play it or not.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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That doesnt make any sense. Were raising all in to get the money in while were behind? What?
 
J

JustSoPro

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That doesnt make any sense. Were raising all in to get the money in while were behind? What?
You DONT KNOW you are behind in this situation from anything that you said. If you are behind, fold. If you have information on the opponent and know they would do this with AQ, JJ or worse, etc. then push them all in.
It is a push/fold situation, if you call you my as well burn your money with a lighter as I already said.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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youve never played live have you?

EDIT: even if they are doing this with AQ/JJ go ahead and plug AQ+/JJ+ vs AQs into an equity calculator
 
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J

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You need 30%ish Equity to justify going all in(You can't justify calling as the stacks behind aren't there). I don't need to plug it into an equity calculator. I have played tons of live, you have the nits who only play AA, AK, AQ, and JJ+, you have the psycho's who will go all in with any two cards pre-flop, then you have the LAGs and just passive players who basically pay the rake for you as they try limping every hand. I mainly play live my man, and saying you just sat at the table but you gave no reads on anyone at the table tells me you don't play live much as when playing live, most of the faces will be familiar(maybe not if you are playing in vegas). As I said, you gave NO information about anyone at the table other than their chip stacks, according to chip stacks it is push or fold if you were to be min-raised. The only option you should not do is call. QQ is in the range you are giving your opponent, AA is in the range you are giving your opponent, if you just call unless the board comes KJT or three of whatever your suit is, you are saying you should still fold. YOU CAN'T JUSTIFY CALLING HERE WITH WHAT WE KNOW.

I put AQs vs AQs+,JJ+ in a calculator, you get 35% equity. In 1-2 live, you get players who play way looser than that, but I have rarely seen anyone with the discipline to fold JJ+ or AQ+ pre who was playing with a comfortable bankroll. The people who I have seen fold AQo+ generally buy in for $40(min buy-in) and try to make it last for as long as they can which is more of a leisure player than making a smart move.
 
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J

JustSoPro

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Since you insist on calling, what flops would you be down to shove on after seeing? Your SPR will be < 1 so you almost have to shove on the flop.


Chances of flopping:
AAx or QQx(Still not the nuts, if they have a pocket pair of x you are way behind)
P=(((3/50) * (2/49)) + ((3/50)*(2/49)*(2/48)) + ((3/50)*(3/49)*(2/48)))*2
P=0.005408
AQx(Still not the nuts, if they have a pocket pair of x you are way behind)
P=((7/50)*(3/49))+((7/50)*(7/49)*(3/48))+((7/50)*(3/49)*(3/48))
P=0.010357
KJT(Not the nuts, but you are way ahead unless all suited then they could have a flush, or you could have the royal and it's the nuts...)
P=((12/50)*(8/49)*(4/48))
P=0.003265
Three same suit as yours(Not the nuts, but ehhh it's close enough)
P=((10/50)*(9/49)*(8/48))
P=0.006122
P(all combined)=0.025152

If those are the only flops you will be shoving on(or willing to call a shove with), you will be throwing away your 32 that you are calling with 97.4848% of the time. If this situation happened 100 times, you would be losing $3,119.51 and winning(assuming they called your shove on the flop AND assuming you won every time(WHICH WONT HAPPEN)) $1,006.08 for a net loss of $2,113.43. Chances are in some of the situations where you flop what you like, you will also lose thus having a much larger net loss(And this is only considering calling a minraise in your situation, the higher the raise the higher the loss)
 
dj11

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I think this hand represents how different OLP is from live.

A pot size bet OnLine will work better than the same play in a live setting.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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I think this hand represents how different OLP is from live.

A pot size bet OnLine will work better than the same play in a live setting.


yeah, i think 75 is closer to the right number, but that may just be results oriented. tbh i dont remember what everyone had, it may have just been that everyone had strong hands to call with
 
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