$200 NLHE Full Ring: Questionable bluff with QQ

thepokerkid123

thepokerkid123

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$200 NL HE Full Ring: Questionable bluff with QQ

First off, the hand (QQ) isn't all that important for deciding whether or not the bluff was a good one but it is important to consider the lost showdown value in turning this into a bluff.

Influencing reads on this hand:
SB is a decent TAG player and I can rely on him to fold if I represent a hand.
MP is as weak as they come, but folded pocket kings to my KJ on a 8TJ board earlier (he never bet so much as a dollar pre-flop or on the flop in that hand) so I had him pegged as very passive.



My stack was $250 and the other two players in the hand had about the same. I was on the button and it was a $1/$2 NL game, I'm dealt QhQc.

Two MP players limp and I raise it to $12, SB calls, one MP folds and the other calls.

Pot is $40
Flop is Kc4d6h rainbow

We all check.

Turn is a 4h

Again, we all check. - I possibly should have bet here. What do you think?

Pot is still $40.
River is 2s

SB bets $20, MP calls, I push in $150.

Results in white bellow so you get a chance to put them on a range before I tell you.
Highlight to read:
SB folds TT (discussed the hand afterwards so I'm relying on his word that he had TT, but he wasn't lying), MP calls and turns over KT.



Obviously on the river I thought I was behind but thought I really only had to get through the SB who as I've already mentioned I can rely on to not do anything stupid. I thought MP had a weak king.
 
shootwillus

shootwillus

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I like the way you did the results in white. Its a fun game to put them on a hand and then see if you are right. I had the SB basically correct...I was thinking JJ, 10's, or AJ AQ, so, i am glad for that read.

MP guy...a bit harder read. If he is as passive as you say, he could seriously have AA or KK or something ridiculous.

I really think you should have put out some bets before an All-in push on the river. You let so so so many possible hands get free cards. Pocket 2's, any 4, 3-5(ok, this is really rare), and...as you found out, any hand with a king is really going to start feeling powerful by the river.

On your river push you are risking $150 to get $80. If you had bet out earlier you may have got some calls earlier, built a bigger pot, and built a believable story for AK or AA. If i had the 10's...i'd most likely be out on the flop and i would never call a turn bet. If i were MP I never would be in this with K10 and I wouldnt check the turn if I were him.

At some point, someone has to bet out to see who is winning...someone needed to take control of this pot and the direction it is headed before the river.

You got MP to lay down a set of K's because he was afraid of the straight. I would have hammered him again on this flop. If he can lay down 3 kings he can lay down 2 kings.

The thing is...what is possibly going to call this all in river push and not have you totally crushed? How much junk like pocket 7's are showing up here for that amount of money? Also, do you think it has to be an all in? Maybe a re-raise to value bet may seem more believable and cheaper?

I don't know...its not my style to makes these kinds of plays. I'd personally feel very uncomfortable making your play and thus I am coming up with a bunch of reasons why it isnt a good idea....so, i think I have a bias here.

I just don't like slowplaying hands that arent the nuts or nut-esque. It seems to have always brought me trouble.
 
thepokerkid123

thepokerkid123

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shootwillus said:
I like the way you did the results in white. Its a fun game to put them on a hand and then see if you are right. I had the SB basically correct...I was thinking JJ, 10's, or AJ AQ, so, i am glad for that read.

MP guy...a bit harder read. If he is as passive as you say, he could seriously have AA or KK or something ridiculous.
I figured that these hands would have been bet at some point, or raised on the river. His river call was what confirmed "weak king" for me, but you're right. This guy could have had an absolute monster.

I really think you should have put out some bets before an All-in push on the river. You let so so so many possible hands get free cards. Pocket 2's, any 4, 3-5(ok, this is really rare), and...as you found out, any hand with a king is really going to start feeling powerful by the river.
The river wasn't all in, I still had nearly $100 behind me after the bet.
On your river push you are risking $150 to get $80. If you had bet out earlier you may have got some calls earlier, built a bigger pot, and built a believable story for AK or AA. If i had the 10's...i'd most likely be out on the flop and i would never call a turn bet. If i were MP I never would be in this with K10 and I wouldnt check the turn if I were him.
I think this (and possibly the bet sizing on the river) was the biggest problem. I didn't bet earlier for the AK, AA, KK story to be completely believable. I thought it believable enough that on any of them I'd be giving free cards to let the other players catch up, the absence of a turn bet still seemed a problem but not one I thought either player would be willing to pay $130 to look up.

At some point, someone has to bet out to see who is winning...someone needed to take control of this pot and the direction it is headed before the river.

The reason for not betting the flop was the WA/WB concept. On the turn I felt I had the best of it, but checked looking for a showdown (the flush draw was a slight concern).

You got MP to lay down a set of K's because he was afraid of the straight. I would have hammered him again on this flop. If he can lay down 3 kings he can lay down 2 kings.
I should have stated that in that hand he put me on pocket jacks, this guy was someone who was thinking first level poker, with enough fear to fold hands that he shouldn't have. You're right the the 8TJ board is straight heavy and many good players will fold here (not in the manner he did though), I perhaps should have left that bit out because he certainly didn't know well enough to know how dangerous it was.

The thing is...what is possibly going to call this all in river push and not have you totally crushed? How much junk like pocket 7's are showing up here for that amount of money? Also, do you think it has to be an all in? Maybe a re-raise to value bet may seem more believable and cheaper?
You're right, anything that calls me has me crushed, it was a bluff. They both showed enormous weakness and I knew they could both be moved off of their hands.

I don't know...its not my style to makes these kinds of plays. I'd personally feel very uncomfortable making your play and thus I am coming up with a bunch of reasons why it isnt a good idea....so, i think I have a bias here.

I just don't like slowplaying hands that arent the nuts or nut-esque. It seems to have always brought me trouble.
I wouldn't slow play hands that can be drawn out on easily either. I wasn't slow playing though.
Click to expand...

Responses in bold.
 
Z

Zybomb

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Didnt read results yet, but blind to them I dislike strongly for many reasons. Most importantly you are playing low limit 1-2 NL where people dont fold and ontop of that given your flop and turn checks and your PFR what exactly are you representing? Id never fold a 4 here and probably never fold a King either, which are precisely the hands we are trying to fold out. If anything with QQ might call as a bluff catcher if someone didnt flat in front of me...since someone did i mot likely just fold. As your opponents laying down a 4 or K is very rare IMO given the action
 
U

Ubercroz

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your on the button with QQ, a K hit and it gets checked to you. I think b/f makes sense here, and if you get called there is a very strong likely hood someone has a K and you can c/f on the next street. I think the flop is the most likely spot to take the pot down. I guess you could fire a 2nd barrel on the turn- which would still be cheaper than 150 on the river. I hate bluffing by showing weakness on two streets because it looks like a bluff and people call you with garbage.
As played I guess call the river and hope your Q's hold up or fold- bluffing seems like a good way to lose $ here.
 
F

fighter

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I like the flop check.

I would bet turn so that you can charge turn draws (small straights and hearts draw) and get value from pocket pairs that don't put you on the K (they are right too). It also lets you check river if you so desire.

I would call the river bet. Shoving will not get a K to fold in this spot as it is not that much more for them and your line looks really suss. If you think they would call with middle pair I could understand but given your read of them as passive I think you don't fold out enough better hands to make this profitable.
 
B

baudib1

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I just think you have way too much showdown value and you are not credibly representing a slowplayed monster by checking 2 streets. KT is practically the nuts on the river given the action.
 
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