$200 NLHE Full Ring: QQ OTB vs EP nit and nit's squeeze

vanquish · Jul 8, 2009

$200 NL HE Full Ring: QQ OTB vs EP nit and nit's squeeze

poker stars, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

CO: $63.40 (31.7 bb)
Hero (BTN): $307.55 (153.8 bb)
SB: $203.05 (101.5 bb)
BB: $201.75 (100.9 bb)
UTG: $208.50 (104.3 bb)
UTG+1: $200 (100 bb)
MP1: $200 (100 bb)
MP2: $250.45 (125.2 bb)
MP3: $200 (100 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is BTN with Q

Q

UTG raises to $6, 5 folds, Hero calls $6, SB folds, BB raises to $26, UTG calls $20, Hero ...

Both villain's are 12/9/3 nits with positive winrates...

beefcake413 · Jul 8, 2009

IMO I can't see that UTG has better then you. IF UTG had KK or AA I would have to think they would re-pop if they had either of those hands. As for the BB, by what you're saying about their style you would have to assume he/she has KK or AA and you're behind so I would fold in this situation.

pantin007 · Jul 8, 2009

what is bb, 3 bet %?

Suited Frenzy · Jul 8, 2009

Is the reason you only called the UTG's raise because of his stats?

In that spot w/ pkt queens, I usually put out a good size 3-bet to make sure no other player has an opportunity to make that same move w/ a hand of lower strength.

bob_tiger · Jul 8, 2009

by nits do you mean horrible tight azz playaz or do you mean solid TAG thats capable of squeezing because he knows you are laggy and is representing a super strong hand by reraising an UTG raiser?

bob_tiger · Jul 8, 2009

just curious...you also play heads up right? would be interested in talking about some hu pokerz if you want. (sry for hijacking thread)

vanquish · Jul 8, 2009

pantin007 said:
what is bb, 3 bet %?

3.1%

Suited Frenzy said:
Is the reason you only called the UTG's raise because of his stats?

In that spot w/ pkt queens, I usually put out a good size 3-bet to make sure no other player has an opportunity to make that same move w/ a hand of lower strength.

he's folding everything QQ beats if i 3bet his UTG raise. i don't want to fold out hands like 99, TT, JJ by putting out a 3bet, because then my hand's equity is very weak against the range of hands he's continuing with

bob_tiger said:
by nits do you mean horrible tight azz playaz or do you mean solid TAG thats capable of squeezing because he knows you are laggy and is representing a super strong hand by reraising an UTG raiser?

i mean 12/9 ultra aggressive players who rarely bluff but are able to recognize profitable spots well

vanquish · Jul 8, 2009

bob_tiger said:
just curious...you also play heads up right? would be interested in talking about some hu pokerz if you want. (sry for hijacking thread)

yeah, i play some .5/1 - 1/2 heads-up. not as much, of course, but i dabble

pantin007 · Jul 8, 2009

vanquish said:
he's folding everything QQ beats if i 3bet his UTG raise. i don't want to fold out hands like 99, TT, JJ by putting out a 3bet, because then my hand's equity is very weak against the range of hands he's continuing with

i mean 12/9 ultra aggressive players who rarely bluff but are able to recognize profitable spots well

for these reasons its very likely that he could be 3 betting light but i tend to give my opponents the benefit of the doubt in this situation, cause jamming cant be profitable and by calling u essentially set mining without proper odds. plus they are nits

bob_tiger · Jul 8, 2009

vanquish said:
3.1%

he's folding everything QQ beats if i 3bet his UTG raise. i don't want to fold out hands like 99, TT, JJ by putting out a 3bet, because then my hand's equity is very weak against the range of hands he's continuing with

i mean 12/9 ultra aggressive players who rarely bluff but are able to recognize profitable spots well

yea thats what I kind of figured, tough spot, I mean I don't think I'm folding this, if the bb is a thinking player which you said he is, he should be able to realize that his squeeze represents a super strong hand since the UTG raiser is also a TAG. I think I'm flatting this because you fold out all the better hands by reraising because it would look super strong in their eyes and just hope K or A doesn't come.

kleitches · Jul 8, 2009

vanquish said:
3.1%

he's folding everything QQ beats if i 3bet his UTG raise. i don't want to fold out hands like 99, TT, JJ by putting out a 3bet, because then my hand's equity is very weak against the range of hands he's continuing with

This is only true because he's a nit, right? Generally you would 3-bet because they will continue with worse and you're wanting to give them incorrect odds to call with a hand you're beating.

bob_tiger · Jul 8, 2009

vanquish said:
yeah, i play some .5/1 - 1/2 heads-up. not as much, of course, but i dabble

yea those are my stakes too for hu. hit me up on aim if u would like. bobtigerm

vanquish · Jul 8, 2009

kleitches said:
This is only true because he's a nit, right? Generally you would 3-bet because they will continue with worse and you're wanting to give them incorrect odds to call with a hand you're beating.

mostly in the games i'm playing, 3-betting QQ OTB against a UTG raise is not a good idea

bob_tiger · Jul 8, 2009

vanquish said:
mostly in the games i'm playing, 3-betting QQ OTB against a UTG raise is not a good idea

agreed, they are always shoving AA/KK/AK and you have the tough decision to make.

kleitches · Jul 8, 2009

bob_tiger said:
agreed, they are always shoving AA/KK/AK and you have the tough decision to make.

Isn't this true for most stakes?

switch0723 · Jul 8, 2009

snap fold on the basis i cant see utg having anything but qq+, and are just flatting so that you come along aswell. Shipping is massive spew, flatting is going to put you in awesome spots n every flop, folding is nitty and hawt here

bob_tiger · Jul 8, 2009

kleitches said:
Isn't this true for most stakes?

true i guess

kleitches · Jul 8, 2009

bob_tiger said:
true i guess

I guess the point Vanq is making is that the higher the stakes, the tighter the UTG range tends to be. So I can see why 3-betting could be a bad idea. I'm just a bit confused between when we should be 3-betting because we want worse hands to call (to extract value when we're ahead obv) and when we shouldn't be 3-betting because we're afraid we'll fold out worse.

Thoughts on this Vanq? Also, would 3-betting the UTG's open and then folding to a 4-bet/shove really be that bad? I realize that 3-betting QQ and folding to a reraise would be sort of shitty, but do we can take down the pot enough to justify making that play? There's also the possibility that he indeed does call with worse.

pantin007 · Jul 8, 2009

kleitches said:
I guess the point Vanq is making is that the higher the stakes, the tighter the UTG range tends to be. So I can see why 3-betting could be a bad idea. I'm just a bit confused between when we should be 3-betting because we want worse hands to call (to extract value when we're ahead obv) and when we shouldn't be 3-betting because we're afraid we'll fold out worse.

Thoughts on this Vanq? Also, would 3-betting the UTG's open and then folding to a 4-bet/shove really be that bad? I realize that 3-betting QQ and folding to a reraise would be sort of shitty, but do we can take down the pot enough to justify making that play? There's also the possibility that he indeed does call with worse.

if we take down the pot with a 3bet, that means that we have folded out a worse hand that we will not get value from on later streets

vanquish · Jul 8, 2009

kleitches said:
I guess the point Vanq is making is that the higher the stakes, the tighter the UTG range tends to be. So I can see why 3-betting could be a bad idea. I'm just a bit confused between when we should be 3-betting because we want worse hands to call (to extract value when we're ahead obv) and when we shouldn't be 3-betting because we're afraid we'll fold out worse.

Thoughts on this Vanq? Also, would 3-betting the UTG's open and then folding to a 4-bet/shove really be that bad? I realize that 3-betting QQ and folding to a reraise would be sort of shitty, but do we can take down the pot enough to justify making that play? There's also the possibility that he indeed does call with worse.

basically his range is nitty enough that playing QQ for set value (and rare set-over-set value vs. his TT/JJ hands) is really the logical play

3-betting QQ for value is good in position vs. guys who open wide enough, and don't fold to many 3-bets (something like a 14/11 with a 52% fold to 3b comes to mind)

in regards to 3-betting QQ and playing vs. 4-bets, i really only wanna be 3-betting QQ if:
-i'm out of position (because calling sucks, and folding obv. sucks)
-the guy will call a reasonable amount of my 3-bets, and his opening range is wide enough
-he is in a spot where he can 4-bet as bad as JJ or AKo and stack off with those hands, or he can 4-bet bluff
-he 4-bets KK+ (so i know that when he calls my 3bet, i'm ahead)

or something like that

kleitches · Jul 9, 2009

pantin007 said:
if we take down the pot with a 3bet, that means that we have folded out a worse hand that we will not get value from on later streets

Yeah but I'm just saying there are times where 3-betting is still the best action to take

pantin007 · Jul 9, 2009

kleitches said:
Yeah but I'm just saying there are times where 3-betting is still the best action to take

well yeah, but this isnt that time

orangepeeleo · Jul 9, 2009

So in this hand then are you happy to get it in on a low board when the flop comes down??

I play 6max so it might be a bit different but when i have QQ IP i prefer to flat call than 3bet, if you 3bet and the initial raiser flat calls then an A or K comes down on the flop, he donks into you and your in a shitty spot, you could also fold out worse which has already been said, whereas if you flat call you can see if the flop brings a dreaded ace or king and proceed accordingly.

It's always seemed to me a nitty way to play them but the only thing that calls a 4 bet is AA,KK,AK, if the flop comes down with no ace or king, i stack and get shown AA/KK then i'm not too bothered but i hate to put that much money in pf, and possibly be commited, only for an ace or a king to come down and the villain bets out.

vanquish · Jul 9, 2009

orangepeeleo said:
So in this hand then are you happy to get it in on a low board when the flop comes down??

I play 6max so it might be a bit different but when i have QQ IP i prefer to flat call than 3bet, if you 3bet and the initial raiser flat calls then an A or K comes down on the flop, he donks into you and your in a shitty spot, you could also fold out worse which has already been said, whereas if you flat call you can see if the flop brings a dreaded ace or king and proceed accordingly.

It's always seemed to me a nitty way to play them but the only thing that calls a 4 bet is AA,KK,AK, if the flop comes down with no ace or king, i stack and get shown AA/KK then i'm not too bothered but i hate to put that much money in pf, and possibly be commited, only for an ace or a king to come down and the villain bets out.

if the board comes down low i'm certainly not getting it in. i just call flop, pot control turn/reevaluate on turn and river.

even if a K flops and he cbets i dont hate it, because i can call the flop since he's cbetting his entire range, which i'm still ahead of at that point

$200 NLHE Full Ring: QQ OTB vs EP nit and nit's squeeze

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