$200 NLHE Full Ring: QQ on Button

live cash game 1/2
(effective stack is 450$)
MP+1 is good/solid player

I am on the BTN with QsQc , player utg limps and another player in MP+1 limps aswell, i raise it to 15$ utg calls, and MP+1 3bets to 65$, i think for a little and call. heads up to the flop it comes 9s 10s Jc he c bets 100$ (i think about just calling but if a brick hits the turn then i will be calling another bet, i decided to go for fold equity) I shove all in for 385$ish he thinks for a while and opts to call.

I am just curious to see if any of you would have played this hand a different way and if i played it poorly, how so?

I think overall this is pretty reasonable. A limp-reraise is kind of suspicious, especially from a solid player. I'm not folding QQ though. I like the choice to flat IP.

I think when we shove this flop we are not ahead a ton, but not too behind either. His limp-reraising range has me a bit perplexed and can be pretty random at times (I've seen anything from T9s to AA).

You could maybe try raising a little smaller on the flop since 4x is quite large, but I guess since you're trying to maximize fold equity the overshove is not a bad option.

My guess is we're looking at something like KK/AA, maybe 88. Who knows though?

Well-played imho.

Wow cold call RAISE in MP. I can't think of a hand where this looks like a good idea.

If he has AA KK, QQ, or AKs his over limp into 4 or 5 players out of position invites the limpede.

JTs, KQs, JJ, TT, or 99 makes more sense. He wanted to limp and is now trying to force the fold. It doesn't look like a value bet. I think you should have 4 bet preflop.

Is your shove a value bet or a bluff? He bet 2/3s pot using 1/3 of his stack, looking very pot committed. What would he do that with and then FOLD to a shove? I don't think you have any fold equity.Anything you fold out you were already beating.

Metsdude396 said:

I think overall this is pretty reasonable. A limp-reraise is kind of suspicious, especially from a solid player. I'm not folding QQ though. I like the choice to flat IP.

I think when we shove this flop we are not ahead a ton, but not too behind either. His limp-reraising range has me a bit perplexed and can be pretty random at times (I've seen anything from T9s to AA).

You could maybe try raising a little smaller on the flop since 4x is quite large, but I guess since you're trying to maximize fold equity the overshove is not a bad option.

My guess is we're looking at something like KK/AA, maybe 88. Who knows though?

Well-played imho.

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He showed up at showdown with AA, i was very surprised actually as i thought AA may have been a hand that could find a fold considering the wet board, keeping that in mind i knew it was possible he still held this hand but i had a ton of outs in case he still called, the fold equity was the main reason i opted to go allin

TheBigFinn said:

Wow cold call RAISE in MP. I can't think of a hand where this looks like a good idea.

If he has AA KK, QQ, or AKs his over limp into 4 or 5 players out of position invites the limpede.

JTs, KQs, JJ, TT, or 99 makes more sense. He wanted to limp and is now trying to force the fold. It doesn't look like a value bet. I think you should have 4 bet preflop.

Is your shove a value bet or a bluff? He bet 2/3s pot using 1/3 of his stack, looking very pot committed. What would he do that with and then FOLD to a shove? I don't think you have any fold equity.Anything you fold out you were already beating.

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as i said, he was a strong player and the effective stack was 450$ meaning when he bet out 100$ on the flop he was only contributing 1/4 of his stack, he would need to call another 300$ which means, YES my fold equity was fairly good, also hands like J10s and KQs are great hands to play in multiway pots, there would be no reason for him to 3bet these types of hands pre as they would only get called by better hands. I guess what im trying to say is that i knew he was strong ie: JJ,QQ,KK,AA,AK maybe even AQs but all of these hands mentioned are capable of folding on this flop and if they dont fold i still have a fair amount of outs i can hit to win PLUS fold equity

mvpnight said:

as i said, he was a strong player i knew he was strong ie: JJ,QQ,KK,AA,AK maybe even AQs but all of these hands mentioned are capable of folding on this flop and if they dont fold i still have a fair amount of outs i can hit to win PLUS fold equity

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1) Unless villain had a very HUGE reason for limp/3-bet you shouldn't clasify him as a 'strong player'
2) Any player that limp/3-bet AA/KK is never folding for any amount of $$$ on any flop.

I agree with Jilly that almost 0% of his range is folding here. I think we're almost certainly behind (or close to it), almost certainly live to 10 outs, and almost certainly never going to make villain fold. Folding blank turns is a disaster. You're faced with a question:

Do you want to gamble for an almost even money spot? If yes, all-in.
Do you not want to gamble? If no, fold.

It comes down to like if you think losing what essentially is a flip will cost you in tilt EV.

tl;dr Shove has to be fine. Fold has to be fine. Call is bad.

Likewise for him, calling a shove here is a complete gamble. At best you have AJ, but you most likely have some sort of pair + draw against which he's not doing great. Furthermore, you could have a set or a made straight against which he's screwed.

I think against your range in this spot, given the price you gave him, he made an incorrect call. Now does that mean your shove is worse? Meh maybe a little. Against a tighter player, the shove is better. Against a looser one....up to you.

this limp/reraise (IMO size 4-bet ) is too strong for speculate hands and bluffs It looks purely for value imho + solid player , overall he plays oop to you , 200 bb deepstacks I do not like totally i folded pre

Just wondering, if we know Villain's range is exactly AA/some combos of KK, is it profitable to set-mine pre?? I'm not really a poker math wizard at all, despite studying it a ton. We have a 1 in 7.5 chance in flopping a set (I think), so for every $375 we spend on average, we will flop a set. But we also get into reverse implied odds when there's 3 to a flush, and he makes his flush. Or we get set over set on the flop, or he sucks out on the turn/river. We also don't always get paid off when we hit our hand, like if the board runs out KKQxx or QQJxx. Anything think folding pre is fine? Or is it mathematically correct to call to setmine? We're getting two to one on a call, and we are risking $50 to win his whole $450 stack.

Jillychemung said:

1) Unless villain had a very HUGE reason for limp/3-bet you shouldn't clasify him as a 'strong player'
2) Any player that limp/3-bet AA/KK is never folding for any amount of $$$ on any flop.

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I plugged JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AK, AQs in to my equity calculator and you're 37/63 dog. Add in JTs, KQs and your equity doesn't change much. Even taking out AA and KK and you're still a 40/60 dog. It really comes down to how many bluffs he has.

Folding QQ pre just seems disgusting to me. I think we'd have to know more about the player to make such a non-standard play.

Folding QQ pre in low limit live games can be pretty easy at times. People are not aggressive enough pre. We also have the read of him being a solid player even though he limp reraised. Folding pre wouldn't be that shocking and I'd definitely do it against the right players when I'm sure my QQ is as good as 22.