$200 NLHE Full Ring: Playing huge draw 3 way

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Gildog89

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Live $1/2 cash game. Guy to my right (V1) has been there for about 45 minutes and has played every hand. He generally raises preflop and he raises big to any sign of weakness post flop and has been running over some of the table. Position doesn't seem to matter for him. The button (V2) is pretty solid, playing strong preflop hands, but can be a bit passive at times. I have the smallest stack at $550 and haven't played a hand in 2 orbits.

V1 (UTG) limps $2
Hero (UTG+1) raises to $12 with QsTs
V2 (BTN) calls $12
SB folds
BB calls $12
V1 calls for $10 more

Pot is $49...Flop come 3s 9c Js

V1 donk leads for $30
Hero?....I decide to flat and try to keep V1 betting into weakness
V2 calls $30
BB folds

Pot is $139 turn is 6d

V1 bets $65
Hero?....again, I flat, though I thought about trying to take it down here.
V2 calls $65

Pot is $334...river is Ks

V1 bets $185
Hero?...again, I flat hoping to get V2's money
V2 open folds KJo


I played the hand thinking I had 18 outs the whole way, but think I probably should have played more aggressively so as not to rely only on hitting my hand, especially on the turn, and with V2 in the hand. Thoughts?
 
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JustSoPro

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As soon as you called, you gotta know v2 knows you have something(and the line you took on the hand looks like a draw), I wouldn't expect v2 to call unless he had the ace high flush as you said he was playing solid and you may have been overly tight. I would have shoved on the river hoping v2 didnt have the ace high flush and that v1 read it like a bluff or was "too invested" to fold.
I also wouldn't think you had 18 outs the whole way, you should be looking at it as 15 outs, chances are one of the other players is just holding overcards and to count a queen as an out there would be a major leak.
 
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Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

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I generally prefer raising this spot. Yes we have a hand where we can easily and profitably call flop and turn with plenty of equity, but we have no SDV unimproved, which is a problem.

This is a fantastic holding to throw in our raising range because not only do we have heaps of outs against any hand that's beating us (and we can profitably gii if necessary), but we also block many of the goodish hands villain can hold like QJ, JT, etc.

As played, on the turn a raise is still fine too. V2 will never really have a nutted hand when he's just calling flop on such a wet board facing a lead and a call. He can have some draws, some of which we're ahead of, some of which we're not, so raising and just auto getting him out has a lot of benefit. Plus we still get V1 to fold a decent amount I think.

On the river I'm actually pretty unexcited about the fact that we're getting bet into. I'm not folding, but it's so likely either we or V2 have a flush now that it's hard to see V1 value betting 1 pair, and he may check 2 pair and sets too.

We also just block so many WORSE flushes that could play it this way due to the exact spades in our hand and on the board. And AXss is pretty likely. I don't fold, but I'm just calling for sure and I'm kind of annoyed about facing the bet.
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

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Raise flop donk bet. It helps you take control, get UTG heads up, and define the range of hands both BTN and BB have. And you do even win sometimes right there.


Raise flop to $80 or $90, maybe even $100, somewhere in that range based on history, images, etc, real time info I don't have.


You are shortest stack of all, so you are pretty deep.

If someone raises you, after you already raised the donk bet, you know what they'll have..... sets and 2p most likely. Then it comes down to the price you get laid.


So, we raise, all fold to UTG, he calls $90.

Turn 6d. Brick. He checks, we bomb it right there.... 180-250 range. It's whatever either way. We barrel this dude right out of there. He can't have that good of a hand IMO based on his lol line pre and post.


The way you played the hand, you need to actually get there to win. What do you do then if you miss? On turn your odds are like 25% "ish" to hit your draw. So yeah 1 time in 4 you win the hand. TBH, you are playing either scared or you just don't know the correct line.


I think the correct line is a flop raise, and the open in EP is kinda loose with Q-10s. It's a sexy hand but it's dominated a bunch by the ranges people call you with, and you are likely gonna be OOP with deep stacks and bloated pots. Not where I wanna really be ideally.

And you don't want other people coming along on the flop either. It just complicates things, you don't know what they have cause their range is wide, cause you didn't raise like you are supposed to, and then one more person fighting for the pot.


This sounds kind of like that passive 1/2 player mentality that I hear people telling one another at the casino. They have logic like "I wanted to keep everyone in so the pot gets big if I win" and that sort of stuff. I never correct them, or say anything. It's hard to beat the game if you rely on draws to actually hit to drag pots.



I'm probably blunt. Sorry. Not my intention. But I think this hand is a good one to talk about. I can't think of a reason not to raise the flop.


Thanks for posting the hand.
 
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Gildog89

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Beanfacekilla said:
Raise flop donk bet. It helps you take control, get UTG heads up, and define the range of hands both BTN and BB have. And you do even win sometimes right there.


Raise flop to $80 or $90, maybe even $100, somewhere in that range based on history, images, etc, real time info I don't have.


You are shortest stack of all, so you are pretty deep.

If someone raises you, after you already raised the donk bet, you know what they'll have..... sets and 2p most likely. Then it comes down to the price you get laid.


So, we raise, all fold to UTG, he calls $90.

Turn 6d. Brick. He checks, we bomb it right there.... 180-250 range. It's whatever either way. We barrel this dude right out of there. He can't have that good of a hand IMO based on his lol line pre and post.


The way you played the hand, you need to actually get there to win. What do you do then if you miss? On turn your odds are like 25% "ish" to hit your draw. So yeah 1 time in 4 you win the hand. TBH, you are playing either scared or you just don't know the correct line.


I think the correct line is a flop raise, and the open in EP is kinda loose with Q-10s. It's a sexy hand but it's dominated a bunch by the ranges people call you with, and you are likely gonna be OOP with deep stacks and bloated pots. Not where I wanna really be ideally.

And you don't want other people coming along on the flop either. It just complicates things, you don't know what they have cause their range is wide, cause you didn't raise like you are supposed to, and then one more person fighting for the pot.


This sounds kind of like that passive 1/2 player mentality that I hear people telling one another at the casino. They have logic like "I wanted to keep everyone in so the pot gets big if I win" and that sort of stuff. I never correct them, or say anything. It's hard to beat the game if you rely on draws to actually hit to drag pots.



I'm probably blunt. Sorry. Not my intention. But I think this hand is a good one to talk about. I can't think of a reason not to raise the flop.


Thanks for posting the hand.
Click to expand...
Honestly, I posted the hand because I wasn't happy with myself for playing it like this, so be blunt, tell me I played terrible, whatever. I want and appreciate the honest feedback.

I opened here a little loose hoping to get into a hand with V1, figuring I could play back at him with a hand that has potential to flop well. Nice follow through on my part!

I generally would play this draw more aggressively, raising the flop and/or turn. My thought process here, and it is really flawed, was to keep V1 in the hand with a ton of equity because he would keep putting the chips in for me. I know I wasn't capitalizing on my fold equity here, which was a bad play. I guess I fell into that passive 1/2 category you mentioned.

In the end, I never found out what V1 had, because he just mucked. V2 was pissed that I didn't have to show my cards. I knew I played the hand crappy, so I was glad to not have to show.
 
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