$200 NLHE Full Ring: Overpair facing a tough spot

J

jfkingchan

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 7, 2013
Total posts
30
Awards
1
Chips
8
Live Cash Game. $1/$3. Would really appreciate some insights on this hand. Many thanks!

Hero: $420 (BTN)
Villain:$340 (SB)

Villain has been quiet. Players in the table tend to be quite loose pf but tighten up significantly post flop.

2 limps, Hero opened to $15 on the button with KcKh.
SB and BB both called. 3 ways to the flop.

Flop Jd 7d 4s. Check to Hero who bet $36. SB tanked for a while and check raised to $114. Folded back to Hero. At this point Hero was putting Villain on either 1)flush draws and combo draws, 2)sets 3) very occasional two pairs 4)Some kind of top pair hands raising and trying to find out where he is at.

Hero decided to call and proceed carefully. Turn came a 4d completing the flush and pairing the board. Villain checked and Hero checked behind for pot control.

River came a Qh. Villain shoved for around $210 into a pot of around $280. Hero??

I folded after some deliberation deciding I was beat more often than not. Would appreciate some thoughts on this. The only hands I think I can beat are 1)busted straight draws 2) any J7 combo 3) JQ. Do you agree with my fold?

In hindsight, should Hero have played the hand any differently? Comments much appreciated!
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Total posts
5,781
Chips
0
This to me screams a set of jacks

Ax diamonds would 3bet more often than not pre... also someone really tight passive wont be coming along with mid to small connectors.

Once he realises u dont have a flush... he can now shove for value.

We also know he doesnt have a baby flush or he would bet being afraid of the river screwing him over.

Someone tight passive does not play draws aggro... 1/3 play their hands faceup in general and it is what it is. Such a big raise on flop says ur screwed... fold

Someone who tanks a while is pretending they have a hard decision.. this is a tell.
This also should be clear he knows what hes doing.

If its a heat of the moment perhaps hes lost a pot and bets quicker than normal... then we shove flop and laugh
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Total posts
5,781
Chips
0
Ohh these guys are one of my fav at the casino. Not only do they let you know when they have you beat and also fold too much as well :)

And for him to do this to you he considers you a tagfish
 
R

RakeMyLife

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
May 1, 2013
Total posts
208
Chips
0
Nice post, gross spot!

Analysis to follow, but I would call here. Mostly bc his betting line doesn't make sense (unless he has QQ).

On the flop I think ur ranges for him are correct, so I'll stick to those:

1) flush/combo draw (Adxd, 5d6d, 8d9d, 8d10d, 9d10d): unlikely but possible if he's aggro/tricky or thinks u are weak (but as u said this table is tight postflop). Problem is also his turn check... he got there with a flush so why would he check? Because he's afraid of the paired board? Then why would he bet the river?

2) sets (JJ, 77, 44): this is more likely on the flop at this level. But the problem is the same as the #1... why check the turn? To him...u obviously have a good hand and will likely call a raise, and u probably check behind him again on turn bc he took the lead over on the flop. Most players at this level go nuts on the turn here bc they filled up.

3) two pair (J7): also very likely at this level. On the turn, the scare card (and ur flop call) causes him to check. After u check, he isn't worried u have a boat (or a flush). So on the river he thinks he has the best hand (or can bet u off ur overpair).

4) top pair: likely only if he's very aggro/tricky. Don't usually see this line on the flop at this level either. But if he did have it, analysis is same as two pair...scare card makes him check, ur check gives him confidence on the river. This hand makes the most sense if he has QJ.

So with those scenarios, it comes down to what u think this guy is capable of. Without any info on villain, his betting line makes most sense for option #3 imo (which is why I would call). I think the next likely hands would be set (JJ/77), 5d6d, Ad4d.
 
R

razzor94

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 3, 2015
Total posts
344
Awards
1
Chips
1
Live Cash Game. $1/$3. Would really appreciate some insights on this hand. Many thanks!

Hero: $420 (BTN)
Villain:$340 (SB)

Villain has been quiet. Players in the table tend to be quite loose pf but tighten up significantly post flop.

2 limps, Hero opened to $15 on the button with KcKh.
SB and BB both called. 3 ways to the flop.

Flop Jd 7d 4s. Check to Hero who bet $36. SB tanked for a while and check raised to $114. Folded back to Hero. At this point Hero was putting Villain on either 1)flush draws and combo draws, 2)sets 3) very occasional two pairs 4)Some kind of top pair hands raising and trying to find out where he is at.

Hero decided to call and proceed carefully. Turn came a 4d completing the flush and pairing the board. Villain checked and Hero checked behind for pot control.

River came a Qh. Villain shoved for around $210 into a pot of around $280. Hero??

I folded after some deliberation deciding I was beat more often than not. Would appreciate some thoughts on this. The only hands I think I can beat are 1)busted straight draws 2) any J7 combo 3) JQ. Do you agree with my fold?

In hindsight, should Hero have played the hand any differently? Comments much appreciated!

Its a litle unclear pre flop to me how many players were there ? Were there 2 limpers behind the blinds and when you raised the blinds call the limpers fold ?
Nevertheless i think your pre flop raise in a live game is way off. Online games and live games differ so much when it comes to passivity, skill, position awareness etc. I would raise probablly around 25-30$ pre in this spot in a live game. Especially when you describe the players as loose pre flop.

When it comes to post flop i think a bet is fine, bet sizeing looks good. Now when he check raises i am not putting him on 2 pairs cause if he plays J7 its J7s and there are only 3 combos of that and thats such a small part of his range that it doesnt matter so i am not worried about that and i think he folds
74 preflop.
Also if he has a set i put him on 77 or 44 cause i think JJ 3bets preflop especially OOP. So thaths just 6 more combos of sets + 3 combos of 2 pair thats just 9 combos that beat you.
I also cant put him on something like TP unless an occasional AJ that might or might not 3bet preflop. You block some of his KJ and a QJ or other Jx TP are a more in a cold down mode + there are turn and rivers that he could bet more profitably and more convincing as a bluff ( 3 flush cards or cards that fill up some straights)

Whats left are his draws and there are many of them. I cant even start to think. Nut FD, K,Q high FD, straight FD, pair + FD...
Against a range like that in a check raised pot i think the best play is to shove here. Not just becouse his range is mostly build of FD but if you call the raise you are seting up yourself for his shove anyway becouse he has less then a pot bet on the turn and you would be getting a sick price.

I cant really say what to do on the turn and river cause i would never get to turn and river like this. But when another diamond roles of on the turn it pretty much filles up his entire range and i would fold even though where are getting 2.3 to 1.
You need 30% equity to breakeven and i just dont think we can make a profitable call based on his range so its a fold.

I think first mistake was the preflop betsizing and the second one is the decision not to shove on the flop.

Hope this helps.
GL
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Total posts
5,781
Chips
0
For me the sizing was fine pre. You want to blend in with the crowd and catch them overplaying weaker holdings. This isnt hard at a casino because they want to play and if they want to play they have to pay. And they will :) and its our duty to charge and give them what they want

Razzor you can add JJ because you said it yourself live is a lot more passive... There only tends to be 3 or 4bets when theres the top because these people are so bad they dont understand when and where they can use position or aggression. So they play safe so to speak aka bad poker.
 
R

razzor94

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 3, 2015
Total posts
344
Awards
1
Chips
1
For me the sizing was fine pre. You want to blend in with the crowd and catch them overplaying weaker holdings. This isnt hard at a casino because they want to play and if they want to play they have to pay. And they will :) and its our duty to charge and give them what they want

Razzor you can add JJ because you said it yourself live is a lot more passive... There only tends to be 3 or 4bets when theres the top because these people are so bad they dont understand when and where they can use position or aggression. So they play safe so to speak aka bad poker.

If they want to play why not charge them more ? Why let them outdraw you for cheap ?
Even if you add JJ on the flop its still a profitable shove.
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Total posts
5,781
Chips
0
Yes but it all depends on our image when we raise more than the standard
 
R

RakeMyLife

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
May 1, 2013
Total posts
208
Chips
0
Its a litle unclear pre flop to me how many players were there ? Were there 2 limpers behind the blinds and when you raised the blinds call the limpers fold ?
Nevertheless i think your pre flop raise in a live game is way off. Online games and live games differ so much when it comes to passivity, skill, position awareness etc. I would raise probablly around 25-30$ pre in this spot in a live game. Especially when you describe the players as loose pre flop.

When it comes to post flop i think a bet is fine, bet sizeing looks good. Now when he check raises i am not putting him on 2 pairs cause if he plays J7 its J7s and there are only 3 combos of that and thats such a small part of his range that it doesnt matter so i am not worried about that and i think he folds
74 preflop.
Also if he has a set i put him on 77 or 44 cause i think JJ 3bets preflop especially OOP. So thaths just 6 more combos of sets + 3 combos of 2 pair thats just 9 combos that beat you.
I also cant put him on something like TP unless an occasional AJ that might or might not 3bet preflop. You block some of his KJ and a QJ or other Jx TP are a more in a cold down mode + there are turn and rivers that he could bet more profitably and more convincing as a bluff ( 3 flush cards or cards that fill up some straights)

Whats left are his draws and there are many of them. I cant even start to think. Nut FD, K,Q high FD, straight FD, pair + FD...
Against a range like that in a check raised pot i think the best play is to shove here. Not just becouse his range is mostly build of FD but if you call the raise you are seting up yourself for his shove anyway becouse he has less then a pot bet on the turn and you would be getting a sick price.

I cant really say what to do on the turn and river cause i would never get to turn and river like this. But when another diamond roles of on the turn it pretty much filles up his entire range and i would fold even though where are getting 2.3 to 1.
You need 30% equity to breakeven and i just dont think we can make a profitable call based on his range so its a fold.

I think first mistake was the preflop betsizing and the second one is the decision not to shove on the flop.

Hope this helps.
GL

Respectfully disagree about a few things. First, on the flop...do u really think it's more likely a $1/$3 player is check-raising a draw rather than two pair or set after tanking for a bit? And if he has a draw, why would he check-bet the turn and river? Not saying it's impossible, but that scenario seems much less likely than two pair or set.

Second, I don't think JJ can be taken out of his range. Again, many players, especially at this level, are comfortable flatting preflop with JJ.

Last, I don't think the preflop raise was a problem. $15 should be enough to thin the field, and unless hero usually raises big in that position (with any hand), it telegraphs his hand.
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Total posts
5,781
Chips
0
Respectfully disagree about a few things. First, on the flop...do u really think it's more likely a $1/$3 player is check-raising a draw rather than two pair or set after tanking for a bit? And if he has a draw, why would he check-bet the turn and river? Not saying it's impossible, but that scenario seems much less likely than two pair or set.

Second, I don't think JJ can be taken out of his range. Again, many players, especially at this level, are comfortable flatting preflop with JJ.

Last, I don't think the preflop raise was a problem. $15 should be enough to thin the field, and unless hero usually raises big in that position (with any hand), it telegraphs his hand.


I think people tend to flat JJ because they are afraid to 3bet esp with a hand like JJ it spooks them.

But i guess its their way of playing snug isnt it :)
 
R

razzor94

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 3, 2015
Total posts
344
Awards
1
Chips
1
Respectfully disagree about a few things. First, on the flop...do u really think it's more likely a $1/$3 player is check-raising a draw rather than two pair or set after tanking for a bit? And if he has a draw, why would check-bet the turn and river? Not saying it's impossible, but that scenario seems much less likely than two pair or set.

Second, I don't think JJ can be taken out of his range. Again, many players, especially at this level, are comfortable flatting preflop with JJ.

Last, I don't think the preflop raise was a problem. $15 should be enough to thin the field, and unless hero usually raises big in that position (with any hand), it telegraphs his hand.

Firstly 1/3$ cash game is a standard play at live casinos. You wont find micro limits at most casinos so 1/3$ live is aproximetlly something like .10/.25$ online. Also if you've ever played in a live environment you would know that a 5x-10xBB raise is a standard pre flop play unless the table action is set up differently.

Secondly look at the board texture. Its so so unlikely that he has sets and especially 2 pairs. There are just not that many combos. And yes i think raising a FD with 1 or 2 overcards or pair + FD or straight+ FD is surely the right play (unless you have other exploatitive info on opponent) in this spot regartless of the limit you play cause you have so much equity even when you are behind + an opponent might fold a better hand.
If nothing else the villain would be making a big mistake if he only bets his 2 pair and sets in this spot cause he would be facing his range up every time and he would want to have some FD as he would sets and 2 pair just to balance his range out and not to get exploited.
Also as i said 2 pair and sets are a very small part of his range in this spot and we are at the top of our range.
On the turn he has 1 more bet to make since he has less than a pot bet left behind so why not try and make your opponent think you are afraid of the flush or a paired board. He now knows the hero cant have a set or quads becouse it would shove the flop almost always.
 
R

RakeMyLife

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
May 1, 2013
Total posts
208
Chips
0
Firstly 1/3$ cash game is a standard play at live casinos. You wont find micro limits at most casinos so 1/3$ live is aproximetlly something like .10/.25$ online. Also if you've ever played in a live environment you would know that a 5x-10xBB raise is a standard pre flop play unless the table action is set up differently.

I am well aware of the limits of live play lol. I've played about ~15 live hours this week alone. The point about standard raises preflop though... he shouldn't raise differently based on his hand, that's a tell. If he ordinarily would bet $15 preflop on the button, then he should stick with that. I'm not opposed to maybe like an $18-$20 raise but if villain is gonna call $15, he's gonna call $20. I just don't think this is the problem.

Secondly look at the board texture. Its so so unlikely that he has sets and especially 2 pairs. There are just not that many combos. And yes i think raising a FD with 1 or 2 overcards or pair + FD or straight+ FD is surely the right play (unless you have other exploatitive info on opponent) in this spot regartless of the limit you play cause you have so much equity even when you are behind + an opponent might fold a better hand.
If nothing else the villain would be making a big mistake if he only bets his 2 pair and sets in this spot cause he would be facing his range up every time and he would want to have some FD as he would sets and 2 pair just to balance his range out and not to get exploited.
Also as i said 2 pair and sets are a very small part of his range in this spot and we are at the top of our range.

Why is it so unlikely he has two pair or a set? I'm still not sure why u rule these out. I don't buy the hand combos argument if it makes sense with his betting pattern. Live players at lower limits make this play ALL THE TIME. These are the most likely hands of players check-raising here, period. Check-raising a draw is a very aggressive/tricky line and certainly not common (even if correct).


On the turn he has 1 more bet to make since he has less than a pot bet left behind so why not try and make your opponent think you are afraid of the flush or a paired board. He now knows the hero cant have a set or quads becouse it would shove the flop almost always.

Yes, but he knows hero has a good hand. So again, if he filled up or hit his flush on the turn, checking simply does not make sense (except maybe with 44 bc he's a lock). If villain wanted hero to make him think he was afraid of the board on the turn card, why would he bet the river then? Does he now think hero is confident enough to call him? I could see a bad player doing this, but he is losing a ton of value on the turn by checking.
 
R

razzor94

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 3, 2015
Total posts
344
Awards
1
Chips
1
I am well aware of the limits of live play lol. I've played about ~15 live hours this week alone. The point about standard raises preflop though... he shouldn't raise differently based on his hand, that's a tell. If he ordinarily would bet $15 preflop on the button, then he should stick with that. I'm not opposed to maybe like an $18-$20 raise but if villain is gonna call $15, he's gonna call $20. I just don't think this is the problem.



Why is it so unlikely he has two pair or a set? I'm still not sure why u rule these out. I don't buy the hand combos argument if it makes sense with his betting pattern. Live players at lower limits make this play ALL THE TIME. These are the most likely hands of players check-raising here, period. Check-raising a draw is a very aggressive/tricky line and certainly not common (even if correct).




Yes, but he knows hero has a good hand. So again, if he filled up or hit his flush on the turn, checking simply does not make sense (except maybe with 44 bc he's a lock). If villain wanted hero to make him think he was afraid of the board on the turn card, why would he bet the river then? Does he now think hero is confident enough to call him? I could see a bad player doing this, but he is losing a ton of value on the turn by checking.


No one is rulling those hands out. They are built in his range. I am just saying that with all hands he can have shoving is the most profitable play. We could shove and he could show up with a set but that doesnt mean that we made a bad play. In the long run we are going to be way ahead of his range in this spot and that makes shoving the optimal play.

You want to have hands that can fold or continue on this flop. You can fold the bottom 30% of your range facing this action( something like SPTK, SP, gutshots etc). But if you are folding KK in this spot what are you continuing with? If you continue here with only 2 pair or better you are folding like 90% of your range or even more and that makes your opponent bluff you off way too much and you get exploted way to offten.
Folding in this spot is definetly a -EV play and is the worst of all 3 options.
I could get on with a call if you have certain info on the villain and have a plan how to proceed on certain turns.

Turn and river shouldnt be a discussion cause we shouldnt get in this spot the way we did.
But if we are already talking you have to see that the villain has less than a pot bet left so its left to him whether he wants to stack off on the turn or river. If he was deeper he would certainly bet the turn and put himself in a place to stack off the riv.
With that said why not give the hero one more street to hang himself and bet ? And ofcourse he is going to stack the riv when he checks cause would want to risk the hero checking behind with a hand that call a shove with the price he is getting.
 
R

razzor94

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 3, 2015
Total posts
344
Awards
1
Chips
1
And if you put him only on 2 pair and sets why are you calling ? Its wrong to put anyone on range of only 12 combos in this spot. Shove can also mathematicly be proven right if you are interested.
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Total posts
5,781
Chips
0
Its alls villain dependant... we need to know hes capable.

flush comes out on the turn and villain checks... now this means either he has nut flush or hes afraid.

Chances are hes setting up a trap... and when he shoves river it looks so strong. Especially all draws are there as well.

Straights and flushes... but his raise on flop looks more like 2pair or set. If hes a good solid player he could havw Ax suited diamonds and wants two cards turn and river... so check check he gets it.

Now going back to our turn play if we had a flush we would be betting the hand... so by river villain knows with turn info his sets good or straight given the action


Also we cant ignore that given preflop action the call pre could be jj qq... a lot of the value hands we make money from now crush us. AJ AQ dont bet like this

Villains make more calling mistakes than shoving or betting

Anyways ill shhhh
 
Last edited:
Figaroo2

Figaroo2

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Total posts
7,363
Awards
16
Chips
13
A flop raise usually indicates a set or a good draw to me (I would especially raise with a set against you if you have been tight hoping you have a premium you can't let go.). the flush draws arrive so check turn, fold river seems prudent. So other than 56 he has us beat (56hh got there as well).
I can't shove flop without knowing he is capable of raising his draws. He flips over a set you look a complete mug dead to two outs. Remember your tight image, most raises will be the goods because he can't be sure you won't go the whole way with an overpair.
2 pair on this flop is very unlikely imo, only a complete fish calls x5 pre in the blinds with any 2pair combo here and fish don't tend to raise flop bets either.
 
Last edited:
R

RakeMyLife

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
May 1, 2013
Total posts
208
Chips
0
No one is rulling those hands out. They are built in his range. I am just saying that with all hands he can have shoving is the most profitable play. We could shove and he could show up with a set but that doesnt mean that we made a bad play. In the long run we are going to be way ahead of his range in this spot and that makes shoving the optimal play.

This assumes every flush draw is in his range, and I would not make that assumption. I think only 4 combinations are reasonable... 5d6d, 8d9d, 9d10d, and 8d10d. There's is no way u can put him on other flush draws without more info about how he plays.

You want to have hands that can fold or continue on this flop. You can fold the bottom 30% of your range facing this action( something like SPTK, SP, gutshots etc). But if you are folding KK in this spot what are you continuing with? If you continue here with only 2 pair or better you are folding like 90% of your range or even more and that makes your opponent bluff you off way too much and you get exploted way to offten.
Folding in this spot is definetly a -EV play and is the worst of all 3 options.
I could get on with a call if you have certain info on the villain and have a plan how to proceed on certain turns.

Turn and river shouldnt be a discussion cause we shouldnt get in this spot the way we did.

So you are basically concluding that hero should only raise in this spot. I think that's crazy. You simply don't know enough at this point in the hand.

But if we are already talking you have to see that the villain has less than a pot bet left so its left to him whether he wants to stack off on the turn or river. If he was deeper he would certainly bet the turn and put himself in a place to stack off the riv.
With that said why not give the hero one more street to hang himself and bet ? And ofcourse he is going to stack the riv when he checks cause would want to risk the hero checking behind with a hand that call a shove with the price he is getting.

Let me ask you a question, are players more loose on the turn or on the river? Everyone knows the answer is the turn. This is proven by hero folding the river and everyone agreeing he should fold. Villain has to know his chances of making money are better on the turn which is why the river bet is strange. I think if he does have the goods, villain made a bad play and I would learn a lot about him in the process. By folding, u now give up 1/3 of ur stack for zero information and a chance that u had the best hand.
 
Omahahahaha

Omahahahaha

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Total posts
554
Awards
1
Chips
15
You might be able to get away from it on the flop to their raise, it all comes down to observing them and figuring out exactly what sort of hands they would make this raise with.
 
Top