$200 NLHE Full Ring: OESFD vs villain

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LeGenie

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Hi guys I would like your feedback on a hand that I played at a 1/2 NL live table yesterday.

UTG limps
MP1 raises to 6
Hero calls in the CO with 8:heart: 9:heart:
The blinds both call and Villain (UTG) calls as well.

Flop comes 6:heart: 7:heart: K:spade: $24 in pot

SB, BB, and UTG check ... MP1 shoves for $37 ... Hero???

After MP1 shoves the effective stacks will be mine $150 since UTG has over $400 behind...
My question here is do you call behind, 3 bet or shove?? If you call and UTG calls do you shove turn on a blank?? If I 3 bet and UTG 4 bets do you shove then???

UTG is loose aggressive and a bit of a maniac. I have seen him open raise with Q4 suited and call a raise with J4 suited from EP...

Your feedback is highly appreciated!
 
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Henreiman

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You're 100% never folding as you likely have winning equity in this pot. Since you are draw heavy, I'm probably looking to call and hope for someone to come along with...I doubt that we are getting bet into on the turn, and we have the opportunity make more $$$. Also obviously call/shoving turn is stupid because we're showing down vs the all in anyways. This is all about trying to get maximum value. If we so happen to run into a bigger draw, cold deck.
 
loafes

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Henreiman said:
You're 100% never folding as you likely have winning equity in this pot. Since you are draw heavy, I'm probably looking to call and hope for someone to come along with...I doubt that we are getting bet into on the turn, and we have the opportunity make more $$$. Also obviously call/shoving turn is stupid because we're showing down vs the all in anyways. This is all about trying to get maximum value. If we so happen to run into a bigger draw, cold deck.
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I have to disagree with this, although I'm no expert. I think calling is going to put us in a stupid spot on the turn if we miss, and although we have good equity I would hardly say we having have winning equity without. We don't yet have a made hand so I think shoving now well we can still realize our share of equity is best.
 
Mr Sandbag

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Why not call? OP most likely has winning equity, so why not try to "invite" others into the pot? Shoving will fold worse hands that might otherwise contribute to the pot. And given UTG's status as a maniac, we just might lure him into shoving the flop if we and/or others flat.

We also have position on everyone, so even if we miss on the turn, we aren't necessarily going to face a bet and could very well have the opportunity to see a free river.
 
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LeGenie

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Mr Sandbag said:
Why not call? OP most likely has winning equity, so why not try to "invite" others into the pot? Shoving will fold worse hands that might otherwise contribute to the pot. And given UTG's status as a maniac, we just might lure him into shoving the flop if we and/or others flat.

We also have position on everyone, so even if we miss on the turn, we aren't necessarily going to face a bet and could very well have the opportunity to see a free river.
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After analyzing the hand I figured that the best play in this spot would be to call the flop and build a bigger pot therefore improving my odds. Since MP1 is already all-in there is not point in generating fold equity given that I am probably already behind MP1 who is all-in so inducing a fold from other villains will just make me lose money in the long run. The best approach in my opinion is to flat call flop then shove the turn which will then induce a fold from weaker holdings since my hand has no showdown value if I miss the river.
 
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baudib1

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Since MP1 is already all-in there is not point in generating fold equity given that I am probably already behind MP1 who is all-in so inducing a fold from other villains will just make me lose money in the long run.
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This is assuredly not the case. Given how shortstacked MP1 is, he should be shoving with any piece of the flop...6x, 7x, A-high no draw, 54. You are in fine shape and a favorite over basically any range and have MP1 crushed.

Your logic here doesn't follow. You want to give yourself better odds by inviting others in...when you massive equity but 9-high? And then shove the turn, after people have put in $37, when you have less fold equity than on the flop before they've put anything in?
 
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LeGenie

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baudib1 said:
This is assuredly not the case. Given how shortstacked MP1 is, he should be shoving with any piece of the flop...6x, 7x, A-high no draw, 54. You are in fine shape and a favorite over basically any range and have MP1 crushed.

Your logic here doesn't follow. You want to give yourself better odds by inviting others in...when you massive equity but 9-high? And then shove the turn, after people have put in $37, when you have less fold equity than on the flop before they've put anything in?
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Let me elaborate ... If I call the flop and UTG calls the pot will be $135 on the turn. If it's checked to me on the turn and I shove UTG will be getting about 2 to 1 to make a call which is def not profitable if he is on a draw since there are no implied odds that come into play at this point given I am all-in. Moreover, if UTG had a K with a marginal kicker he would most likely fold given my tight table image as I can easily have him dominated in this spot. Also, even if both blinds call the $37 all-in bet UTG will still not be getting correct odds to draw and will have to re-evaluate a turn shove with a marginal hand.
 
IPlay

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LeGenie said:
Let me elaborate ... If I call the flop and UTG calls the pot will be $135 on the turn. If it's checked to me on the turn and I shove UTG will be getting about 2 to 1 to make a call which is def not profitable if he is on a draw since there are no implied odds that come into play at this point given I am all-in. Moreover, if UTG had a K with a marginal kicker he would most likely fold given my tight table image as I can easily have him dominated in this spot. Also, even if both blinds call the $37 all-in bet UTG will still not be getting correct odds to draw and will have to re-evaluate a turn shove with a marginal hand.
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A lot of if's have to fall in to place for this elaboration to unfold.
 
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LeGenie

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IPlay said:
A lot of if's have to fall in to place for this elaboration to unfold.
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Not necessarily ... The only move I would have to evaluate is a shove on the flop from UTG in the event I flat call MP1's shove. Remember UTG is loose aggro maniac so the likelihood that he has a made hand is very slim as he would have open raised pre-flop or 3 bet MP1's pre-flop raise but he didn't. He open limped and flat called the raise pre-flop. Please feel free to comment on my thought process :)
 
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baudib1

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LeGenie said:
Let me elaborate ... If I call the flop and UTG calls the pot will be $135 on the turn. If it's checked to me on the turn and I shove UTG will be getting about 2 to 1 to make a call which is def not profitable if he is on a draw since there are no implied odds that come into play at this point given I am all-in. Moreover, if UTG had a K with a marginal kicker he would most likely fold given my tight table image as I can easily have him dominated in this spot. Also, even if both blinds call the $37 all-in bet UTG will still not be getting correct odds to draw and will have to re-evaluate a turn shove with a marginal hand.
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You are giving everyone better odds to call on the turn after the pot has gotten enormous and meanwhile, your equity has been cut in half. This is a very clearcut shove on the flop.
 
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Henreiman

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I'm sure just calling ends up being exploitable if you can guarantee your opponent shoves the turn, but I've found that (esp. in live play) people tend to check turns after calling an All in on the flop.
 
Figaroo2

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This is an interesting spot, dangerous multiway action.
Clearly your equity is much better without a 3rd player in the pot.
If the shover has AK without a heart you are 56%. 3% less if he has a high heart.
Problem is if others have anything else that will call like a set or AhKh this will decrease your equity by at least 10% -20% and you are no longer fav.
UTG limped originally, so I would suggest more chances of him and players in the blinds having a lower set than high hearts.
Anyone in the hand having a set would be a 10% fav over you at the flop.
If you want to reduce the risk of losing your whole stack could you raise enough to discourage a call from anything marginal without getting pot committed.
If someone else then shoves you can then make a player dependent decision as to whether to call.
 
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LeGenie

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Figaroo2 said:
This is an interesting spot, dangerous multiway action.
Clearly your equity is much better without a 3rd player in the pot.
If the shover has AK without a heart you are 56%. 3% less if he has a high heart.
Problem is if others have anything else that will call like a set or AhKh this will decrease your equity by at least 10% -20% and you are no longer fav.
UTG limped originally, so I would suggest more chances of him and players in the blinds having a lower set than high hearts.
Anyone in the hand having a set would be a 10% fav over you at the flop.
If you want to reduce the risk of losing your whole stack could you raise enough to discourage a call from anything marginal without getting pot committed.
If someone else then shoves you can then make a player dependent decision as to whether to call.
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If I 3 bet I will have to make it at least $90 and then I will be left with about 60 which is just not good bet sizing so I will have to shove the flop and make marginal hands risk their stack to see a turn and river.
 
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