$200 NLHE Full Ring: Loose table, K-Jo in position vs bad LAG and tilted drooler (kinda butchered it)

Beanfacekilla

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$200 NLHE Full Ring: Loose table, K-Jo in position vs bad LAG and tilted drooler (kinda butchered it)

This one should be good for laughter, if nothing else.

I know, fold PF.


Butchery begins....


Hero is in LP, with K-Jo. Hero has to have a nitty image. I play pretty much TAG, very tight (not really here though). But that's what my table mates have seen so far. Me folding, a bunch. Playing aggressive when I do play.

Aggro-spew station has straddled. Reads on him are:

UTG (covers H, barely) He raises and plays way too many hands, seems oblivious to position, and just seems spewy. Don't know how light he c-bets just yet. But he bets almost all flops. I did see him check-call once in a HU pot. He raised, picked up a caller, and flop came A-K-3r. He check called flop, and c/r turn. His opponent folded the turn, and he showed the table his A-Ko (thank you for that, Mr. Villain!) after his opponent mucked.

EP2 ($200ish) player was the first one to call the straddle, and he is a drooler. He was deepstacked, but recently lost a little over 1/2 his stack. He was raising over 50% of pots, until he lost his face off. The hands he has been showing down are total trash. Opened EP, and barreled flop, turn, and river with J-6dd. He rivered a flush, and messed some dude up. That's one example. Now, he has tightened up a bit, but he is still playing far too many hands. I think he is tilted, from losing a big pot recently (I think he lost pot to UTG, drooler vs drooler). He tried playing at me really hard when I first sat down too. Small 3bs, raising and trying to push me around. He didn't get much from me though. I was very careful.

So, here we go. Here is the hand, from my notes during the game. I'll try to clean it up a bit, so it is easy to read.

Lastly, I limped with intentions of calling the straddler's raise (I know he's gonna raise). I wanted to play a pot IP vs this guy. It ended up just being a bonus that the other shit-for-brains is in there too.

9. CO ($289) Ks-Jh. Straddled pot. 2L, we limp. Gets around to aggro straddler, he raises to $29, 2c (1 calls for $27 AI), we call. Flop Js-9h-3h.

Pretty easy to understand, but 2L, means two limpers. One dude limp/calls all in for $27.

So 3w action OTF with one already all in.

So, OTF, the straddler bets $57, and the other tilted drooler just shoves for $178.

Action is on me. The guy who shoved, probably has a FD or worse, we for sure have him beat. However, this straddler... what does he have? He did react to the drooler shoving. There wasn't much there, but I don't think he liked it. Not sure though.

So I think, and think, and think. I finally decide to just go with the hand, hoping I don't run into it. I shove. Straddler clearly reacts now, with a WTF expression. He tanks, and tanks, and folds. Obv he barreled into 2 opponents, OOP, with nothing very good.

Turn 9c, river 5s.

Board reads Js-9h-3h-9c-5s



So let me have it guys. How bad is this? The only reason I shoved postflop, is because I trusted my read was right (at least against drooler who shoved). Worst case scenario, I thought as played, we put a lot of pressure on UTG straddler, and mayyyybe he folds better, considering postflop craziness. However, one of my poker mentors LOLd hard at me folding out better when I told him hand. He had a good laugh.
 
Beanfacekilla

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I'll give anyone a buffalo nickel if they can guess drooler's (dude who shoved flop) hand here.

The straddler also told us what he folded after the hand (if he was truthful).
 
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TimovieMan

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Straddler had a pocket pair. 22/44-88.

Other drooler either had T8/T9/JT/QJ or the AhXh flush draw.
I hope for your sake it wasn't T9.
 
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I laughed pretty hard when I read your description of the players because I can relate so much in my experiences of live poker.

The tilted drooler probably doesn't have a set or 2 pairs here. I think that he would smooth call with that. I would guess that he either has a weak Jack (maybe J5 or something haha) or a draw. If he has a draw it's probably QT, T8 or a FD.

The UTG straddler probably has a worse hand than you too. I'm guessing either a weak Jx, a hand like TT, a hand like K9s, maybe a gutshot like KT that he almost talked himself into calling with.

I think you have the best hand here the majority of the time. It's unlikely that either villain would fold AJ or better.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Straddler had a pocket pair. 22/44-88.

Other drooler either had T8/T9/JT/QJ or the AhXh flush draw.
I hope for your sake it wasn't T9.

I laughed pretty hard when I read your description of the players because I can relate so much in my experiences of live poker.

The tilted drooler probably doesn't have a set or 2 pairs here. I think that he would smooth call with that. I would guess that he either has a weak Jack (maybe J5 or something haha) or a draw. If he has a draw it's probably QT, T8 or a FD.

The UTG straddler probably has a worse hand than you too. I'm guessing either a weak Jx, a hand like TT, a hand like K9s, maybe a gutshot like KT that he almost talked himself into calling with.

I think you have the best hand here the majority of the time. It's unlikely that either villain would fold AJ or better.


Please offer input (anyone reading this) before checking this spoiler.

Dude who shoved flop shows J-8o.

Dude who straddled/raised claimed he had A-9, and tanked for aT least 60 seconds before folding. He would have sucked out too.

The AI dude mucked when he saw my hand and the J-8o from drooler.

There was some asian dude at the table. He was berating me to the table, and saying how I made a terrible call, etc. He went on and on and on (he just sat down, wasn't even in the hand).

I said something to the effect of "so I had the best hand, and put the monies in. And it wasn't a call, I shoved"

"Blah blah, bad call, horrible, blah blah" He says.

"Thanks for the lessons coach" I say.

He then starts babbling and asking me a question, I just ignore him, pUT back on the headphones, and go back to it.

I just saw another dude that was at the table, and he told me dude was talking shit about me for like an hour after the hand, to everyone. I was oblivious because of headphones. He was saying I'm a fish, etc.

I think everyone was generally shocked that I put my money in with that, and many of them probably thought it was bad postfop. However, I just felt what I felt, and I trusted it.

But all in all, fold pre. Fold pre. Fold pre. Yes. I did it. I am a fish.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Nothing wrong with preflop, imo, based on your image, reads and hand.


I don't like it though. We miss flop 2/3 of the time, and just fold, and light $29 on fire. Poof!
 
Trabendo_daze

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This is played completely fine imo.

Here's my opinion: If we consider the limpers' ranges, we have to be ahead of them right? Why should we be folding preflop? We are in late position with a top 15% (10%?) hand. I would actually raise to thin the field a little and make players put in money with crappy hands. However, we may assume that raises are always going to get called and that the straddled will always reraise. If this is the case, our limp-call plan HAS to be fine, right?

KJo doesn't play great postflop, but you'll only make mistakes against things like AJ/AK/KQ, which we can pretty much assume that no one has. It's the limpers who have J6s, K8o, etc who actually will get stacked by YOU more than the other way around. You are ahead.

Now on the flop we can't fold given reads. We have basically flopped the nuts. Congrats to someone if they beat you. Straddler can be bluffing (hearts?, Absolutely nothing?) and also can be valuing less like JTo, QJo. His range is full of things you beat. Drooler has flush draws straight draws worse jacks and a few sets. We are soooooo ahead of these guys.

Well-played man, I think we need to get involved with hands like KJo when we are at this type of table. We will make less mistakes than they will with our stronger hands.
 
Beanfacekilla

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This is played completely fine imo.

Here's my opinion: If we consider the limpers' ranges, we have to be ahead of them right? Why should we be folding preflop? We are in late position with a top 15% (10%?) hand. I would actually raise to thin the field a little and make players put in money with crappy hands. However, we may assume that raises are always going to get called and that the straddled will always reraise. If this is the case, our limp-call plan HAS to be fine, right?

KJo doesn't play great postflop, but you'll only make mistakes against things like AJ/AK/KQ, which we can pretty much assume that no one has. It's the limpers who have J6s, K8o, etc who actually will get stacked by YOU more than the other way around. You are ahead.

Now on the flop we can't fold given reads. We have basically flopped the nuts. Congrats to someone if they beat you. Straddler can be bluffing (hearts?, Absolutely nothing?) and also can be valuing less like JTo, QJo. His range is full of things you beat. Drooler has flush draws straight draws worse jacks and a few sets. We are soooooo ahead of these guys.

Well-played man, I think we need to get involved with hands like KJo when we are at this type of table. We will make less mistakes than they will with our stronger hands.


I like this write up. Thanks for contributing.

I play REALLY tight dude. Like I open fold K-Jo UTG.

It was outside of my comfort zone. I don't like variance. This is a high variance spot. Big big pot for 1p.

However, I was happy to collect the chips, and stack the drooler.

The jaws of at least 5 players at the table were chillin on the floor. I could tell everyone was like WTF?? How is that the best hand???

As I said earlier, the one guy berated me with/without my knowledge for at least an hour.
 
IPlay

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Limp calling 10% of your stack with KJo is pretty bad but once we flop top pair with this SPR we have to go with it

Folding KJo UTG is pretty standard FR, you should be folding KQ/AJ too
 
Beanfacekilla

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Limp calling 10% of your stack with KJo is pretty bad but once we flop top pair with this SPR we have to go with it

Folding KJo UTG is pretty standard FR, you should be folding KQ/AJ too



Yup. I just think most live players don't really fully understand the beast full ring is. People limp and call $17 with Q-9o, and much much worse in EP.

I think it is because live play is very slow. People just don't have the discipline to play correctly. They get bored, VPIP is like 80%, etc.

It's like Zynga. Landmines everywhere.

Edit: I play really tight compared to all the rest of the droolers.
 
Trabendo_daze

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Honestly I'm not really sure how bad it is @IPlay...I think because it's 10% of his stack OK it's not great but if we are deeper this has to be fine. We are going to make so much money off of people that make a pair with a shitty kicker and can't get away I think.

Anyways open-folding KJo UTG makes a lot of sense IMO and it's completely different than doing what you did in LP. a raise would probably be better because it would make it much more likely that you have absolute position.
 
Trabendo_daze

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BFP and IPlay, I think it's received wisdom that KJo is a fold after a raise, AJo is a fold UTG, things like that. I'm just trying to question these assumptions so that we aren't playing like a robot making the same moves at every table. I believe there are times when adjustments are necessary, and it looks like BFP ran into one of those times.

When I'm at a tougher table I will make the more standard, nittier folds. However, when I'm at a table that I believe I can outplay, I think it's to our advantage to play more pots, especially when we have hands that are ahead, so that we take advantage of the mistakes that our opponents will make. I think we have more to gain by playing a few more pots than to lose by playing them with hands that aren't premium.
 
Beanfacekilla

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BFP and IPlay, I think it's received wisdom that KJo is a fold after a raise, AJo is a fold UTG, things like that. I'm just trying to question these assumptions so that we aren't playing like a robot making the same moves at every table. I believe there are times when adjustments are necessary, and it looks like BFP ran into one of those times.

When I'm at a tougher table I will make the more standard, nittier folds. However, when I'm at a table that I believe I can outplay, I think it's to our advantage to play more pots, especially when we have hands that are ahead, so that we take advantage of the mistakes that our opponents will make. I think we have more to gain by playing a few more pots than to lose by playing them with hands that aren't premium.


In this spot, we have a mediocre hand preflop, it's not that great. Also, could end up reverse implied odds.

At least we have position, that's pretty important. But this straddler is probably barreling this flop, no matter what it is. And if I don't hit it (2/3 of the time I guess, I don't hit anything), it puts us in a tough spot.

The point being, I know this table is easy to beat. All we do is play better cards than our opponents, and value bet them relentlessly with big hands. But those spots might not even come tonight. We might just not get a good spot to get the bad LAG, or the drooler. If that happens, oh well, we tried, but we just couldn't get him today.....

I suppose we could float him, if he bets, all fold, and we just call, see if we can take it away on the turn. But that's gonna cost $$$. It can mushroom into "whoops, where'd that 50 BBs go? I just had it a moment ago, oh yeah, dude is stacking my chips right now. That's where it went."

We could have just waited a while longer. 3b him pre, take control, better cards, set mine vs him, SCs IP, etc.
 
Trabendo_daze

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Waiting for more nutted hands will definitely be an effective strategy against these people that aren't paying attention, but I just think we might be missing out on opportunities. I think KJo has plenty of RIO against a stronger range, but it is them who are getting dominated by us here more often that not.

Playing the standard nitty tight way will work, I'm just trying to throw something else in there. Try loosening up a little (within reason, pick your spots), see if it works. If it doesn't, adjust. All I'm suggesting is to try mixing it up, it's worth a shot.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Waiting for more nutted hands will definitely be an effective strategy against these people that aren't paying attention, but I just think we might be missing out on opportunities. I think KJo has plenty of RIO against a stronger range, but it is them who are getting dominated by us here more often that not.

Playing the standard nitty tight way will work, I'm just trying to throw something else in there. Try loosening up a little (within reason, pick your spots), see if it works. If it doesn't, adjust. All I'm suggesting is to try mixing it up, it's worth a shot.



Oh I do. I am trying to expand on it, but trying not to spew at the same time. The more I play and study, the more I will learn.
 
Trabendo_daze

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Same here man, we're all learning together.
 
IPlay

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Waiting for more nutted hands will definitely be an effective strategy against these people that aren't paying attention, but I just think we might be missing out on opportunities. I think KJo has plenty of RIO against a stronger range, but it is them who are getting dominated by us here more often that not.

Playing the standard nitty tight way will work, I'm just trying to throw something else in there. Try loosening up a little (within reason, pick your spots), see if it works. If it doesn't, adjust. All I'm suggesting is to try mixing it up, it's worth a shot.

About 70% of the time we miss the flop and fold and we just burned 15bbs. We have no initiative and a bad hand and when the SPR is around 2.5 like it is here, position matters a lot less. We also still have plenty of RIO with the hand too and the fact that the SPR is so low means we can't make folds post once we hit our hand.
 
Trabendo_daze

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What hands in villains' ranges do we have RIO against? I just don't think they have those hands often at all and we have them dominated so often
 
duggs

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About 70% of the time we miss the flop and fold and we just burned 15bbs. We have no initiative and a bad hand and when the SPR is around 2.5 like it is here, position matters a lot less. We also still have plenty of RIO with the hand too and the fact that the SPR is so low means we can't make folds post once we hit our hand.

do we really count in BB with a straddle out there tho?

Im probably raising pre fwiw, or l/raising
 
IPlay

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What hands in villains' ranges do we have RIO against? I just don't think they have those hands often at all and we have them dominated so often

KQ, AJ, JJ+ and any other weird hand he can make two pair with since we can't fold when we make top pair. I mean, OP even said pre was bad but other people were saying it's ok. I just think it should be a raise or fold spot.

Unless you are Duggs and limp/rr like a sicko 😂
 
Trabendo_daze

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I mean these types of players do limp their strong hands too because they are concerned about getting in big pots, but my point is just that they are more likely to have hands that have RIO vs. KJo rather than us having RIO w/KJo vs. their hands. Raising is definitely good though I agree. I thought the argument was whether to play KJo at all rather than whether to limp or raise it.

I think it's Raise>Limp>Fold. Folding just seems way too nitty but hey, it's just like, my opinion, man.
 
Beanfacekilla

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do we really count in BB with a straddle out there tho?

Im probably raising pre fwiw, or l/raising


Dude, this is pretty sick... I didn't have the balls for that at the time. We could just move in on the $29......
 
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Please offer input (anyone reading this) before checking this spoiler.

Dude who shoved flop shows J-8o.

Dude who straddled/raised claimed he had A-9, and tanked for aT least 60 seconds before folding. He would have sucked out too.

The AI dude mucked when he saw my hand and the J-8o from drooler.

There was some asian dude at the table. He was berating me to the table, and saying how I made a terrible call, etc. He went on and on and on (he just sat down, wasn't even in the hand).

I said something to the effect of "so I had the best hand, and put the monies in. And it wasn't a call, I shoved"

"Blah blah, bad call, horrible, blah blah" He says.

"Thanks for the lessons coach" I say.

He then starts babbling and asking me a question, I just ignore him, pUT back on the headphones, and go back to it.

I just saw another dude that was at the table, and he told me dude was talking shit about me for like an hour after the hand, to everyone. I was oblivious because of headphones. He was saying I'm a fish, etc.

I think everyone was generally shocked that I put my money in with that, and many of them probably thought it was bad postfop. However, I just felt what I felt, and I trusted it.

But all in all, fold pre. Fold pre. Fold pre. Yes. I did it. I am a fish.

My prediction was so close. Gotta give me points for guessing that :p

And yeah I fully agree with Duggs' comment. When it's a straddled pot, you need to treat the straddle as the big blind and treat the other blinds as small blinds. So if the straddle was to $4, then a raise to $29 is only a 7x raise and your $289 stack is only 72bbs.

If you had KJo in the CO with a $144 stack and there's 2 players limping in for $2 each, would you limp too? This is basically the situation you're in. So I think either open-raising to something like 7x (5x + x per limper is my standard live poker sizing), or limp-shoving over the aggrotards, is a better alternative to limping in yourself. I'd personally just open-raise, but I like Duggs' creativity if you are fairly sure the aggrotard will come in for a big raise with any junk hand.
 
Beanfacekilla

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My prediction was so close. Gotta give me points for guessing that :p

And yeah I fully agree with Duggs' comment. When it's a straddled pot, you need to treat the straddle as the big blind and treat the other blinds as small blinds. So if the straddle was to $4, then a raise to $29 is only a 7x raise and your $289 stack is only 72bbs.

If you had KJo in the CO with a $144 stack and there's 2 players limping in for $2 each, would you limp too? This is basically the situation you're in. So I think either open-raising to something like 7x (5x + x per limper is my standard live poker sizing), or limp-shoving over the aggrotards, is a better alternative to limping in yourself. I'd personally just open-raise, but I like Duggs' creativity if you are fairly sure the aggrotard will come in for a big raise with any junk hand.


You were very close.

At the time (not saying this is correct), the reason I chose to limp was because dude always raised his straddle. I knew he would raise it up big. So in real time, I thought if I open, and he r/r me, it would be crappy, plus I didn't know how much to raise to... I never even thought about limp r/r. I wish I would have. I think given the raise, and callers, we could shove, and make a nice pick up.
 
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