$200 NLHE Full Ring: Live Straight and Flush Draw. What's your Play?

This from a live hand I played at Foxwoods this weekend.

The table is loose and crazy, even for live cash. This is a great situation for when your getting run over by the deck as you always get paid off with your good made hands. Not so great when you're barraged with mediocre hands as had been my case for the last several hours. My image is probably a bit tighter than usual due to a lack of raising opportunities. Generally speaking, If I can't open raise or raise a single limper from late position I fold. I've folded best hand several times in multi way pots when I thought that my weak Top Pair couldn't possibly be good only to see huge pots go to weaker pairs or even missed ace high draws. I'm tired and frustrated. Probably not the greatest mindset for playing poker.

I had about $150, I had been sitting at this table for about 3 hours and was down about $100. UTG limped and I looked down on in the CO. Good enough for a raise/Cbet (especially when you're moderately tilted) . I make it $8 and get called by both blinds and the UTG limper. The pot is $32.

The Flop comes giving me an OESD and a Flush Draw. Both blinds check and UTG bets $20. The pot is $52, I've got about $130 in front of me and UTG looks to have me slightly covered.

FOLD, CALL, RAISE or SHOVE? What's your play?

I call looking to get more money in the pot from the blinds trying to squeeze or just flatting. If it really looks like the blinds will drop then a min-raise of $45 sets you up for an easy all-in.

Based on gameplay, do you expect both blinds to calll pretty light here? Then call to inflate pot

If not, shove

Fold pre, shove the flop, and break out another benjamin in between hands so you're full stacked.

c9h13no3 said:

Fold pre, shove the flop, and break out another benjamin in between hands so you're full stacked.

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Yep.

c9h13no3 said:

Fold pre, shove the flop, and break out another benjamin in between hands so you're full stacked.

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This.

Jillychemung said:

I call looking to get more money in the pot from the blinds trying to squeeze or just flatting. If it really looks like the blinds will drop then a min-raise of $45 sets you up for an easy all-in.

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Nobody squeezes at live $1/$2, unless they have a hand in which case, it's not really a squeeze I guess. This is a really drawy board I feel like UTG is probably protecting some sort of a made hand. I don't mind a call but I want to take advantage of fold equity which I think I may have alot of. There are alot of better hands that might find a fold here. Middle Pair or TPWK, or any 8 out draw should let this go.

Poker_play said:

Based on gameplay, do you expect both blinds to calll pretty light here? Then call to inflate pot

If not, shove

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Not bad. If I flatted I would expect at least one blind to call. That would give me pretty decent drawing odds, but I can't be sure about that. Floating might not be bad but It's a dead giveaway that I'm drawing. What's my play on the turn If he pots it or ships it? If he checks do I take a free card or shove?
Also, he may be on a draw of his own which might fold to a shove. Do I really want to give him a free ride to the turn? And, IMO, allowing him to win a pot with a high card would be a disaster.

c9h13no3 said:

Fold pre, shove the flop, and break out another benjamin in between hands so you're full stacked.

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Why fold pre? When raising from late position almost any two cards are profitable even with one limper. No one EVER goes away preflop once they've put even a penny into the pot but they rarely call a C-bet either unless they connect. That's just the way it is live. T7s is more than good enough.

Four Dogs said:

Why fold pre? When raising from late position almost any two cards are profitable even with one limper. No one EVER goes away preflop once they've put even a penny into the pot but they rarely call a C-bet either unless they connect. That's just the way it is live. T7s is more than good enough.

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Fold pre because you're 75bb deep. You're almost always going to see a muliway flop and you're rarely going to get everyone to fold to a flop cbet. Oh yeah and another great reason for folding pre is that, if this thread is any indication, you have no idea what your plan is for pretty much the best flop you're ever going to get with T7s.

You should fold pre.

But if you raise, it has to be more than $8. Probably more like $12 to isolate. BB is going to call $8 a huge amount of the time (until proven otherwise, everyone at 1/2 live at Foxwoods is a fish), and then you are not even heads up with a shitty hand.

if you're going to ISO limpers make it $12-$20.

baudib1 said:

if you're going to ISO limpers make it $12-$20.

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Jinx

I'd rather have KTo than T7s against call along fish, especially if I sucked postflop and only had 75bb's. Making top pair against bad players who showdown too often is probably your main source of value.

Any two could be profitable, but I don't think you're that good.

WVHillbilly said:

Fold pre because you're 75bb deep. You're almost always going to see a muliway flop and you're rarely going to get everyone to fold to a flop cbet. Oh yeah and another great reason for folding pre is that, if this thread is any indication, you have no idea what your plan is for pretty much the best flop you're ever going to get with T7s.

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I am almost always going to see a multi way pot. I know that I am. The part I disagree about is the fold to c-bet percentage which vs. a single opponent is like 60 -70%. I'm not sure this is the best flop that I could hope for, but you're right, it was pretty good.

Also, just because I'm asking the question doesn't mean I don't have a plan for the flop and turn, but rather that I'm interested in others opinion about what the best play is. Although I rarely feel lost as to what to do in a given situation, I'm not so arrogant as to assume that there might not be a different or better course of action. I want to hear them.

In this case I chose to shove. I thought his most likely holding was some kind of top pair like AT, KT, JJ, QQ, QJ, JT or flopped 2 pair and the donk bet was protection against a draw heavy board. He would probably let most of these go and if he didn't I had great equity vs his entire range. As it turned out he had JTo for top pair and a higher OESD. The Turn was Queen and the River blanked.

What I don't understand is why your replies to my threads and posts always seem to have an insulting or belittling tone to them. Did I offend you at some point or are you always such a troll when you disagree with someone?

rssurfer54 said:

You should fold pre.

But if you raise, it has to be more than $8. Probably more like $12 to isolate. BB is going to call $8 a huge amount of the time (until proven otherwise, everyone at 1/2 live at Foxwoods is a fish), and then you are not even heads up with a shitty hand.

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baudib1 said:

if you're going to ISO limpers make it $12-$20.

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Again, I don't expect a fold even in the $12-$20 range. If you don't play live $1/$2 you just can't imagine how bad the play is. Rarely will you ever see anyone fold to a raise or a 3 bet once they've put money in the pot. Raising more than 4xbb is a waste of money and just increases your losses when they decide not to fold to your c-bet. You raise only to keep anyone else from joining in without a real hand. Honestly, 2.5-3xbb is usually enough to do the trick.

Four Dogs said:

I am almost always going to see a multi way pot. I know that I am. The part I disagree about is the fold to c-bet percentage which vs. a single opponent is like 60 -70%. I'm not sure this is the best flop that I could hope for, but you're right, it was pretty good.

Also, just because I'm asking the question doesn't mean I don't have a plan for the flop and turn, but rather that I'm interested in others opinion about what the best play is. Although I rarely feel lost as to what to do in a given situation, I'm not so arrogant as to assume that there might not be a different or better course of action. I want to hear them.

In this case I chose to shove. I thought his most likely holding was some kind of top pair like AT, KT, JJ, QQ, QJ, JT or flopped 2 pair and the donk bet was protection against a draw heavy board. He would probably let most of these go and if he didn't I had great equity vs his entire range. As it turned out he had JTo for top pair and a higher OESD. The Turn was Queen and the River blanked.

What I don't understand is why your replies to my threads and posts always seem to have an insulting or belittling tone to them. Did I offend you at some point or are you always such a troll when you disagree with someone?

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I don't really mean to sound that way but probably do. It's because I think very often (as is the case here) you post hands where you believe the way you played the hand is correct and when people give different opinions (like say fold preflop) you just kind of ignore it. Basically I think you post a lot of hands that should be Brags/Beats as HA and, much like C9 mentioned earlier, I don't think you're very good based on a lot of your posts. But you play lollive poker so I'm sure you can easily beat those games. I'll probably just ignore your HA posts from now on (other than to check to see if they should be moved to BBC).

gl

Foxwoods is basically the only place I play live. I wouldn't expect the limper to fold either.

It does make it MUCH more likely that you will be playing HU against someone who limped UTG (almost assuredly a fish) who you can then exploit postflop. It's much harder to outplay 3 players (like in your hand) than 1.

Also, pretty sure that baudib plays a ton of live poker (much more than me, I just turned 21 a year ago!)

Damn, sucks.

I prefer float on the flop. If you have postfop edge on these pplayers (and I presume you do at 1/2...where like you said, pretty bad)..you want to go as far into the hand as possible imo. If you hit, you'll often get paid regardless. If you miss and he checks, use your reads..can you get him off? Generally on 1 2 if villain cbets then slows downn on turn...its safe to shove. If he fires again on a blank..fold.

In fact I do that type of play very often and have done well w it. I understand the ##s and I know that shoving flop gives you fold equity and a better spot...and in some situations id do shove..but not vs 1/2 fish in that spot. If I can get paid when I hit..fold when I miss...and occasionaly win it on scare card/bluffs...and do them all fairly consistently....why not.

Shove was good too tho, just didn't work out.

We have a condescending tone because

1) you make errors we've pointed out before.
2) you make fundamental preflop errors while only being interested in silly postflop spots.
3) you've got lots of posts, which if youve been around for years, our attention span is going to be shorter.
4) only the cool kids can talk about doing cool shit like isoing with T7s. Is it mean not to include you in the cool kids club? Probably, but that's life.

you really need to top up your stack, letting it get to less than 90bb is bad imo.
also you should be isoing much much bigger than 4bb, doesnt matter if they dont fold, as if they fold to cbet as much as you say then you take down a bigger pot plus go heads up to the flop way more.

agree on fold pre and top your stack up, i prob iso QJ+ A7+ K9+ 66+ (in game might raise 22-55 but not sure if thats bad).

WVHillbilly said:

I don't really mean to sound that way but probably do. It's because I think very often (as is the case here) you post hands where you believe the way you played the hand is correct and when people give different opinions (like say fold preflop) you just kind of ignore it. Basically I think you post a lot of hands that should be Brags/Beats as HA and, much like C9 mentioned earlier, I don't think you're very good based on a lot of your posts. But you play lollive poker so I'm sure you can easily beat those games. I'll probably just ignore your HA posts from now on (other than to check to see if they should be moved to BBC).

gl

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I post what I think others might find interesting. I don't see how this hand can be categorized as either a brag or a bad beat and there's nothing in my post to suggest I felt so. Villain flopped top pair and an OESD, I would have called too. But feel free to move them wherever you think best.

I do believe I played the hand correctly, if I didn't I wouldn't have played it that way in the first place. But this is a dialogue, not a cry for help, if I disagree with a reply it would be a disservice not to say so and explain why. That doesn't mean I think it was a no brainer and I hope the more respectful replies don't think my responses are dismissive. I thank you all for taking the time to read and respond. I do at least try to avoid inserting the kind of insulting remarks which you seem so excel at.

I also appreciate your self imposed ban on any of my HA posts. I won't lose any sleep over that.

Four Dogs said:

I also appreciate your self imposed ban on any of my HA posts. I won't lose any sleep over that.

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I probably would if you want useful input

People get frustrated when they tell you obvious leaks you may have but you still think you played the correctly.

duggs said:

I probably would if you want useful input

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I appreciate useful and well intentioned input and if WVH ever provides it i will tell him so.

bgomez89 said:

People get frustrated when they tell you obvious leaks you may have but you still think you played the correctly.

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I don't really have a problem with that. I don't mind a little disagreement, I look forward to it. What a boring place this would be if all the replies were "NH", "Well played" or "Tough break. Better luck next time".

Four Dogs said:

I don't really have a problem with that. I don't mind a little disagreement, I look forward to it. What a boring place this would be if all the replies were "NH", "Well played" or "Tough break. Better luck next time".

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seriously man, surely you can see that not plugging leaks makes it harder to progress as a player and thus be able to comment on more advanced/interesting spots.