$200 NLHE Full Ring: Live Hand - A6o from button vs "solid"

Sysvr4

Sysvr4

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$200 NL HE Full Ring: Live Hand - A6o from button vs "solid"

Found myself at a live table last week. Only game they spread at the time was a $1/2 NLHE, full ring (10 players), and a max buy-in of $200. I think I misplayed this hand on the river. I know there will be opinions on other streets, which is fine, but the river the street which gives me the most pause.

My villain in the hand sat down about 30 minutes prior and is clearly a regular by his speech to the dealers and other players. He has only shown down a couple of hands, nothing at all surprising. My read so far: "solid"

Villain starts the hand with about $250 and I have around $300, so we're both relatively deep.

PF: 2-3 earlies limp, the HJ limps, CO folds, I limp with A6o, SB calls, BB checks

Flop: 3 6 A rainbow

Checks around to HJ (villain) who bets $10. I call, everyone else folds.

Turn: A (suit irrelevant)

HJ checks, I check.

River: Q (don't remember suit, no flush possible tho)

HJ bets $15, I raise to $40, he raises to $100.

Hero?

Be glad to give my thinking on any given street, but I don't want to seed the discussion if the play is obvious. So lemme have it...
 
S93

S93

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Jamity jam all day.
Even if we had some magic read he only stacked full houses i still jam here since there are more 33/66/A3 combos then AQ and AQ is more unlikly then the other hands imo since your read says he is solid and most solid villain i know are raising AQ from LP atleast most of the time.
And that ignoring the fact he is probably stacking most aces here aswell.

Probably still just fold here prf since there are so few flop we actualy like, this is about the only one.
Also just nit picking but on the river i raise more then 40, 65 seems sexy to me. Its not like he is folding anything to the extra 25$ and our line looks like we allways have a bluff or a monster so raising bigger might make it look more like a bluff and get him to hero call some hand.
 
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Zybomb

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Dislike every street

Fold preflop. Your hand has zero value in a multiwaypot postflop. Youre basically hoping for A 6 (less than 5) flops, or 66x. Outside of these flops this hand has tremendous reverse implied odds and gains little to no value when it is best.

As played...

Flop: About as good as we can hope for. villain bets 10 into a 14 with 7 players in the pot. RAISE to fold out (slash make pay) straight draws and other random nonsense and extract additional value from larger Aces or smaller two pairs whcih arent folding.

As played....

Turn: Why in the world are we checking here? "we have the nuts lets slowplay!" NOOO. Bet bet bet all day. Larger Aces are never folding and we are stack to pot ratio is large. Since our goal is hopefully play for stacks or as close to them as possible by the river we need to build the pot. In order to do that WE NEED TO BET. Villain may c-r any ace here or c-c, but regardless if he doesnt have an Ace or better, we arent going to disillusion him in to betting the river and calling a raise, or calling a bet on the river unless he would have called one on the turn so our slowplay isnt netting us any value, its costing us big time since its keeping the pot small and restricting our betting amount on the river.

As played....

River: Raise larger. He bets 15 into a 34 and you baby raise to 40. If he is going to call 25 more hell also call 45 more. Raise larger....As played and he repops to 100 this is a shoveament imo. Especially at low stakes live players will stack off lightly. Yea he could have AQ, but hed much more likely limp 33 or A3s than he would AQ which hed be more likely to raise. He will stack 33 66 A3 A6 and AQ for sure. Theres 3 combos of 33, 1 combo of 66, 3 combos of A3, 2 combos of A6 and 3 combos of AQ. We beat 7 tie with 2 and lose to 3. Its a shove. Add to the fact that villain might stack off with AK AJ AT some of the time (a stretch but at 1-2 not an impossiblity) it further makes the case.
 
A

Aaronftw

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This hand also depends on our image at the table have we shown down many good hands? Have we made many/shown many bluffs? Personally I don't think he has 33 it's a good limping hand in a multiway pot like that, but the turn
check from a reg filling a fh with bottom set wouldn't happen. The turn check
implies two things I'm not sure were I am or I know were I am and I'm slowing down.

He showed up with either AA or AQ is my guess, for a reg to go bet raise reraise at the river he has something. I'm calling here and taking notes...

This reminds me of a limped pot I played deep stacked on a 2/3NL table … I had Qd10d flop comes Ah Qs 3c first limper pot bets after my check from the BB I call after someone in the CO calls.

Qc on the turn I check original raiser bets again CO just calls I reraise villain1 folds villiain 2 calls. River 6d I bet something like 140
he open shoves I tank and call cause he was a maniac he shows q6o riveted me.
 
slycbnew

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Our hand is hugely under-repped on the river, his range is bigger than fh's, we've got the second nuts, jam. If he rivered the absolute nuts, good on him, such is life, that's poker, etc.

Else why slow play the nut fh on the turn? The difficulty w this hand on the river is the stack ratio. If we'd raised flop 2.5x, bet turn, then shoving river is a no brainer.

Like sindri, I would fold pf, but that's nitpicking for this discussion.
 
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Sysvr4

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Thanks everyone, there are some good points made in this thread. I'll give a bit more of my thinking through the hand here. Some of it good, some of it... well, meh.

PF - A6o is a terrible hand, I hate it too. That said, these are equally terrible players. When playing live with this kind of implied on the button, I'll make a marginally light call like this to maximize my post-flop playing time with players of this caliber. If you fold it, fine, but the EV of the play is directly and inversely proportional to the post-flop skill of your competitors.

Flop - Were I reading this hand, I'd no doubt also say raise. The key point I left out that Aaron correctly points out is integral, is that I'm regarded as a nit at this table. I've only shown down big hands, and played ABC poker for the better part of an hour. Plus the entire table is fairly passive post-flop if you don't count stupid overbetting of the pot, etc.

Thus, at the time I figured raising this flop would be rather akin to providing the table with a signed affidavit that I have at least an A, and more likely two pair or a set. I also have position on the villain, and I do loves me some position.

So, should I raise the flop? Maybe. It's as dry as can be, and I'd feel pretty dumb if villain folded and tabled two 9s. Remember, I'm a nit, so his bet could even be little more than a position bet. I don't think raising is bad, but given the full context, I feel it's pretty close.

Turn - I have the deck crushed and he checks to me. I'm putting villain on 77-99 at this point, perhaps to my detriment, but you do the best you can. If I check behind, he may bet out defensively on the river, or check/call a river bet from me thinking I'm making a rare bluff. I believe still that, given my table image, checking here is the right play. And I think he checks 33/66 here less than 10% of the time, but that's based on information I didn't have at the time.

River - Villain is a solid regular. There's zero chance he's 3 betting this river with a dry ace against an unknown nit. I also don't think he calls a shove this deep against an unknown nit with a dry ace, but maybe he will some small percentage of the time. So let's examine the possible FH combinations, because that's where I feel we get paid:

A3 - 3 ways
33 - 3 ways
66 - 1 way
A6 - 2 ways
AQ - 3 ways

I'm purposefully discounting QQ to 0 since he never plays that this way.

So I've got 7 win combos, 2 ties, and 3 losers. We can discount some of them based on how the hand played out, but it's still a very obvious shove, as I suspected and you all pointed out. I wish I'd played it that way, but I left money on the table instead with a call and he flipped up A3. Damn.
 
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T

TimmyOtool

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Wow, thats a super cold deck.

This puts greater emphasis on a turn bet from you. A bet on the turn would probably turn this entire hand around. He'll probably c/r you on the turn and you'll easier get your stacks in on a re-raise.

Remember, you said it yourself that the flop was dry and that you are a nit. A "solid" player would not check call, or bet call a lot of hands against you especially hands like 77-99 hoping your on a bluff.

If he'd have 77-99 what would he really beat on the river? 5-4? that is pretty much the only reasonable draw on the flop.
 
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mrjohnson911

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yeah you should ve shoved the river but I think the check behind on the turn was a bigger mistake..
 
Sysvr4

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The problem with everyone saying checking the turn is a mistake is that you have knowledge that he raises the river and therefore has a hand he'd call a bet with on the turn. You don't have that knowledge when you actually play the turn.

Moreover, the range of hands for which he gives no action on the turn but calls or leads with on the river is vastly wider than the range where we manage to get in significant action on the turn.
 
slycbnew

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The problem with everyone saying checking the turn is a mistake is that you have knowledge that he raises the river and therefore has a hand he'd call a bet with on the turn. You don't have that knowledge when you actually play the turn.

Moreover, the range of hands for which he gives no action on the turn but calls or leads with on the river is vastly wider than the range where we manage to get in significant action on the turn.

Actually, it's not based on the fact he raises the river. I want to build the pot and generally figure if he can't call a turn bet, he's generally not playing the river anyhow. I sometimes bluff this board in position as well, and a lot of villains see the second A on the board and see me holding an A as relatively unlikely - so I sometimes get called by 77 - KK here - and see that as usually (def not always) a better way to get value than to cib on the turn hoping to induce a bet on the river. You've described your image as a nit, so this may not work w your image.
 
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Zybomb

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The problem with everyone saying checking the turn is a mistake is that you have knowledge that he raises the river and therefore has a hand he'd call a bet with on the turn. You don't have that knowledge when you actually play the turn.

Moreover, the range of hands for which he gives no action on the turn but calls or leads with on the river is vastly wider than the range where we manage to get in significant action on the turn.

This is just inaccurate. Villain will not lead the river with any 77-99 hands although he likely will c/c. If we bet the turn he will also c/c with these hands. The hands that he check folds the turn with but bets out or calls the river with are next to none. Maybe 54 he'll bluff the river with? That's about it...

But that's irrelevant. Villain has 77-99 next to NEVER here. He's described as "solid". He lead out in a limp pot into 6 other players. I mean, he has to at least have top pair or better! A solid player is never stabbing into a 7 way LIMPED pot with nothing here. The turn comes and unless he has 63 (in which case we are gaining any value by checking since his hand can't improve against an ace) it helps his hand! Either by filling him up if he has 33, filling him up with A3 or giving him trips. He isn't folding any of these hands. And if he somehow shows up with a hand that he does check/fold, then you haven't lost value from him on the river, because he doesn't have a hand to call the river with either.

We have the nuts are are TRYING TO BUILD A POT. We can begin building the pot RIGHT NOW and hopefully play for stacks by the river. Our stack to pot ratio is large, checking only insures we don't get premium value out of our hand. We are trying to get paid everything when he has a big hand, not an extra few bucks when he randomly bluffs a river or something.

Checking behind this turn is very very very bad. It's not even close
 
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