$200 NLHE Full Ring: live game KK vs. huge UTG limp reraise

B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
$200 NL HE Full Ring: live game KK vs. huge UTG limp reraise

There's a lot of relevant history here, so I'll give the action first.

Villain limps UTG for $2. I am UTG+1 with KsKh

I raise to $16, get 3 callers. UTG makes it $116. I have $310 and he has me and all the callers covered.

Villain in this hand is pretty loose preflop. Have not seen him raise many hands though, except when he min raises without looking at his cards. Great player, I know.

Of particular interest, this player has generally tried to stay out of my way when I raise pre, and perhaps more importantly, he seems to like me and isn't interested in felting me. In one hand we played, he checked when he rivered top set (he limped JJ in the CO!) and told me not to bet when he suspected I had a big hand. There is 0% chance of him having AK here as he's one of those types who says he'd rather have 22.

I had seen him limp AA twice, once in a straddled pot when it folded to him on the button.

I guess it's possible he has QQ but his range seems to be strictly KK+ -- so I should fold?
 
Sean Pilgrim

Sean Pilgrim

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 31, 2009
Total posts
2,620
Chips
0
Umm... I'll always stack off here... FYI, so if you have aces and I shove on you sometime it's KK k?
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
Fair enough...do you agree his range is KK+ though?
 
Sean Pilgrim

Sean Pilgrim

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 31, 2009
Total posts
2,620
Chips
0
KK and better... I dunno likelihood of only playing AKs AA or KK, is such a narrow range, guy should be asleep waiting. I could put him on JJ+ but with such a large raise OOP, I doubt he'd raise THAT much, I mean after all if you have AA or KK you WANT to raise but not necessarily scare everyone out, you want to make a profit on it. I could understand a huge 3 bet like that with 88-JJ you don't necessarily want to see a flop (or 3-bet those) but if you get a caller you still have a hand. I think he's probably playing QQ to be honest. In my opinion anyway... I personally don't know this guy and you do.
 
Z

Zybomb

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Total posts
372
Chips
0
Is villain one of those "Im NOT having my Aces cracked I over raise the hell out of the them pre" guys? I think this large of a raise indicates JJ or QQ from a bad player (the overs always come i must raise huge) more often than AA, but with the history villain might be saying i got it go away man (for some unknown reason) and he's limped JJ before so.... Meh...I probably stack but this might look like an AA spot given the history
 
C

ComplexPlaya

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Total posts
1,347
Chips
0
What have you and the other callers to your raise been doing on that table with huge raises/3bets pre flop?

If you guys folded most of the time, he may just want to steal the pot right there, which I don't see as a bad play per-se.

Also, did he seem bored, maybe he's the type of guy that wants to gamble when he sees a hand he likes even though (or because) he limped so many good hands before.

I'm thinking that might be the case with the pre-flop raises without looking at cards, that indicates a gambling itch...
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
Chips
0
this is a scared TT-QQ tons, sometimes a random spazz with AQs or something; never fold KK to anyone who doesn't play one hand every 3 hours.
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
Chuck, this guy doesn't raise JJ when it folds to him in the CO, I really don't think even QQ is in his range and I've had long arguments with him over the value of AK ("It's just a drawing hand).
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
FYI, I folded, a shortstack went all-in with A5 and cracked UTG's KK.
 
Sean Pilgrim

Sean Pilgrim

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 31, 2009
Total posts
2,620
Chips
0
In any event a limp/reraise is the dumbest thing i have seen people do live in my life...
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
people do it ALL THE TIME in places I play. i mean they do it so much vs. habitual button raisers I just avoid playing when these guys limp UTG. I saw it done about 5 times yesterday and scolded everyone for it..."so childish" I told them..lol
 
Sean Pilgrim

Sean Pilgrim

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 31, 2009
Total posts
2,620
Chips
0
best when they limp and everyone else limps and then they learn the hard way not to limp with KK or AA UTG, when someone decided 64o was worth $2 in mid position and flopped a straight and the idiot turns a set of kings or aces and thinks it's good... that's called justice.

similar thing happened to me, I was playing live limpers everywhere got to me in the CO ($1/$3NL btw) AKs I raise to $25 (it's absolutely necessary where I play). Stupid lady re-raises me, and I was confused, and I was like "What did you limp with that's worth re-raising me now"? I said all in and she said call. she showed QQ and I was saying to myself "Wow, I'd never risk limp/raising like that, stupid old hag" Hit an ace in the window and it was game over.

Why do people think that's smart? Obviously I got lucky in a coin-flip but still, limp/re-raises tilt the shit out of me.
 
Z

Zybomb

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Total posts
372
Chips
0
best when they limp and everyone else limps and then they learn the hard way not to limp with KK or AA UTG, when someone decided 64o was worth $2 in mid position and flopped a straight and the idiot turns a set of kings or aces and thinks it's good... that's called justice.

similar thing happened to me, I was playing live limpers everywhere got to me in the CO ($1/$3NL btw) AKs I raise to $25 (it's absolutely necessary where I play). Stupid lady re-raises me, and I was confused, and I was like "What did you limp with that's worth re-raising me now"? I said all in and she said call. she showed QQ and I was saying to myself "Wow, I'd never risk limp/raising like that, stupid old hag" Hit an ace in the window and it was game over.

Why do people think that's smart? Obviously I got lucky in a coin-flip but still, limp/re-raises tilt the shit out of me.

Limp/Reraising is a big tool to have. For starters it lets you see cheap flops in early position with speculative hands like small pairs and suited connectors, since people are less likely to raise when you've limped early. It also allows there to be a raise, trap dead money and then give you a pot preflop with no flop when you come back over the top and take it down. IF there's a raise and no callers, you can flat and supremely disguise your hand.... You can also occasionally add bluffs into your range since an EP limp/reraise usually gets respect as a very big hand.

So what if it gets limped around and it's a 7 handed limp pot? Ok no biggie. Just proceed with caution. The pot shouldn't be too hard to play since most people do not go beserk in limp pots without monsters. If we flop an overpair bet it, if we receive crazy action fold. As long as your not bad enough to shovel money in with 1 pair on a tough board against multiple opponents showing interest, we won't lose too much when our big hands are cracked
 
Sean Pilgrim

Sean Pilgrim

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 31, 2009
Total posts
2,620
Chips
0
Right but, with all the limpers you really have no idea where you are. If you limp with Kings and someone who you think is a fish limps in too and the flop is AK4 rainbow, he bets out you come over the top he shoves and you call and he has AA. You can't really put your opponents on a range of hands when you limp like that preflop, IMO that's horrible play. I understand what you highlighted there but, I just don't see it as being profitable and most likely a -EV play in the long run.
 
C

ComplexPlaya

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Total posts
1,347
Chips
0
If at the table you play people fold to UTG or UTG+1 raises most times I can see the reason behind it, or just a limp call.

Plus if someone with a loose image raises behind you he gets more callers, and you can get action re-raising. I know most time I raise from EP with a big hand I get all folds, even from the blinds. Frustrating.
 
Z

Zybomb

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Total posts
372
Chips
0
Right but, with all the limpers you really have no idea where you are. If you limp with Kings and someone who you think is a fish limps in too and the flop is AK4 rainbow, he bets out you come over the top he shoves and you call and he has AA. You can't really put your opponents on a range of hands when you limp like that preflop, IMO that's horrible play. I understand what you highlighted there but, I just don't see it as being profitable and most likely a -EV play in the long run.

If this were the case we'd lose our whole stack no matter how we played it. Some players aren't yet good enough to fold overpairs on some boards (that arent super flushy or straighty). If this is the case then don't take chances. Others can easily fold if the situation doesnt seem right.

The important thing is mixing it up. Raise EP with monsters and occasionally 76s type hands as well for balance. Limp with monsters sometimes, limp speculative hands sometimes. Limp/Raise monsters/ occasionally speculative hands for balance. Limp/Call monsters sometimes. The important thing is to balance your range so that opponents are continually guessing.
 
T

TimmyOtool

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 13, 2009
Total posts
95
Chips
0
Its one of those weapons every player should be able to use, the limp-reraise. Really works well with certain players and tables.


Being a live game and how live game and online games are totally different dynamics. You have a deep stack, and an investment of $16 so far, it is pretty nitty to fold, but villan will probalby have QQ+ in this spot 90% of the time.


I'd just fold against this villan and move on...

Oh yea never fold KK PF! :)
 
Organize a Home Poker Game Top 10 Games
Top