$200 NLHE Full Ring: Live game, Combo draw deep with no fold equity, pretty standard play?

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TimmyOtool

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$200 NL HE Full Ring: Live game, Combo draw deep with no fold equity, pretty standard play?

Just sat, won a couple small pots w/o showdown pushing my stack to $350. So far pretty tight PF but has been aggressive when playing hands.

I know a couple regulars on the table, but there are a couple unknowns as well.

Villan is complete unknown never played with him, older man, haven't seen him do anything ridiculous but i've only been playing for 20 mins.

HERO has Qc Tc

Straddle is on

MP calls $4
VILLAN MP+1 calls $4
HERO CO calls $4
BTN calls $4
SB calls $3
BB calls $2
Straddle checks

FLOP ($32)

Kc Ts 4c

4 checks, VILLAN bets $25, HERO calls, 4 folds

FLOP: figured flop was pretty standard call, I didn't feel a raise would get him off the hand, nor did I want to get 150BB in on the flop 50/50. I felt some strength from this villan but he was an unknown to me.

TURN ($84) Jh

VILLAN bets $50, HERO calls

TURN: hand looks like it has improved a bit, and villan has continued his aggressive, again I don't feel he'll drop his hand if raised of course so I just called.

RIVER 2s ($184)

VILLAN bets $50, HERO....




Ok is there ever a time to call this river bet? It screams valuetown and has my play been pretty standard up to this point?

Opinions comments thoughts.
Thanks.
 
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Zybomb

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You didn't mention villain's stack size. Does he cover?

I'd raise the flop. Why do you think you have no fold equity? We also have 4 players behind us and we can fold out nut flush draws, QJ and KQ type hands from them. As far as the initial bettor it seems that short of KT+ (ok K4s) he isn't going to be happy to get stacks in here. Put pressure on him with a raise with the intent of betting a blank turn hard. Unless we have a read that he'll always stack with TP (which in 20 min is tough to have) I think our equity is good and our hand can improve many ways

As played, I'd just call the turn. We've improved to a straight draw as well

River is an autofold. A bluff of this size would have to be a level, and I doubt you see any leveling at 1/2 NL, let alone from a older man against an unknown. It's hard for him to show up with a bluff here except the nut FD I guess since QJ improved and beats you, but if he was going to value bet bluff he usually would do so putting you on FD which is tough if he has one.
 
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TimmyOtool

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Sorry bout that VILLAN covers us. $350 effective stacks.



Well usually a limped pot and then someone bets close to pot like this represents a pretty decent hand, especially from an older gentlemen, KT+/K4s/44 are monsters here, i'd fold out a lot of other hands.

What would a good raise on the flop be? From $25 to $80? I felt that there was a high probability I would get 3-bet on by him and i'd be playing for stacks on the flop right away.
 
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Our hand obviously isnt as strong as QcJc which is what initially came to mind when I saw the title of the thread... that hand will always have odds to play for stacks, but with MP/FD if his range is at K4+ it sucks bc it kills 3 of our outs and if it's 44 it really sucks, so yea I'm not super thrilled about getting 175 BBs in on this flop obviously.

Given all that, just bc of a limp pot with a lot of players doesn't mean that people esp at 1/2 won't bet out TP. The main goal of raising the flop is to fold out TP the times we miss, and get more $$ in the pot for the times we improve. I'd like your line of flatting if we had a read that 1) villain never folded TP or 2) villain was an ubernit and wouldn't lead with KT+ here. Short of this raising is my preferred play. As far as bet sizing, I'd size my raise in the $75-$90 area. The fact that its a limp pot multiway will HELP your case, since you are raising into a decent sized field and a limp pot (so there's not a ton of money in for you to steal...and something that shouldn't matter, but does to a lot of live players, you personally haven't invested that much). This should convince him to fold TP even more
 
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I don't know about raising this flop for fold equity... I don't think you have much either. I can count the number of times I've witnessed an unknown (read: usually terrible) live 1/2 NL player fold top pair or an overpair on one hand. Same goes for someone behind us with the nut flush draw.

I play the hand the same in this setting.
 
Weregoat

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With the Preflop action what it is, we can't really narrow down our villain's range. A small raise pre could have done this ($12? - but you're not in position with a good hand - so could have been risky). You liked the flop, loved the turn, and hated the river.

I'd consider semibluffing the turn, only if you think he could get you to believe you have Q9, because he's sure as hell not going to give you credit for AQ in this pot - also - never. He would call with his KT and you'd end up paying him off.

Fortunately you were able to get away from this one for only $79 - but you really had now information about his hand and were crush by any K, as well as any two pair.

A move I break out sometimes is raising with weaker holdings - which would give you control of the hand, letting you make bets on the flop and turn. Obviously this move is best in position, but another $8 pre could have saved you $75 post.
 
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TimmyOtool

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I didn't think this particular person would let go of any type of King with a decent kicker.

I didn't really have a 2nd barrel planned as well if he did just flatted my raise, so I chose to just draw to my flush.

Anyways, I folded the river and Villan turned up AA

.... ya think about that one ... O_0
 
Weregoat

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Anyways, I folded the river and Villan turned up AA

.... ya think about that one ... O_0


In a straddled hand from early position - limping with AA isn't unheard of. Straddles are expected to be played very aggressively - and you can put a lot of extra chips in the pot by 'just limping' with AA or KK with the intention of reraising, especially if there is a limp or two ahead of you.

And in the live games I play, the straddle ussually raises something ridiculous - being out of position with a lot of limpers in a pot ussually . . . so say $20 wouldn't be an unheard of straddle - mostly to tax the limpers. If a limper or two calls the straddle and then gentleman pops it up to a smooth hundo, well, he just did a tricky play to make a lot of extra money - where as raising outright to $16 or so wouldn't have got him all those extra limps, let alone the raise from the straddle (much more likely to fold - or call with less than premium holdings - ) let alone the money he could stand to squeeze from the caller(s) before him.

I'm not surprised he had AA. And like I said before - a PFR with weaker holdings could have saved you a lot of money in the long run. Of course, it could cost you a lot of money in the long run too. Have to find a happy medium.
 
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