$200 NLHE Full Ring: Live: Flopped bottom set, river FH, over-shove?

$200 NL HE Full Ring: Live: Flopped bottom set, river FH, over-shove?

6 hours into my session, i'm winding down and I finally pick up my monster.

Been playing really tight, shown some bluffs, but generally TAG ABC had the goods mostly at SD.

Villan is loose/passive, most fish player at the table. Saw him c/r KJo on J83r board after CO led, BTN calls, he got c/3-bet shoved and he folded. So his not a total idiot.

Keep in mind everyone this is a LIVE game and the dynamics are different then online.

HERO $400 - UTG 4d 4h
VILLAN $250 - BB

HERO calls, 3 calls, SB calls $1, VILLAN BB checks.

POT-$12
FLOP: Kd Qs 4c

Check, Villan check, HERO bets $11, 2 calls, Villan calls

POT- $56
TURN: 3h

VILLAN check, HERO bets $45, 2 folds, VILLAN calls

POT-$146
RIVER: Ks

VILLAN check, HERO ?????

Against a lot of players I like to over-bet this river since his hand range contains a lot of Kx, however I think the over-bet might make him fold and get action from hands that beat us. Is there a better way ? Should I bet less or just shove this river all day long? (villan has about $190) Bet $100?

The range i've given villan is :
K2-KJ, JT

I've discounted KQ/KK/QQ/K4 since I would have known about it on the flop since the $11 bet was small enough to check raise. However, K3 would still be in his range since he did call a big bet on the turn.

Is there a better way? Opinions on line? Pretty standard play?




Results in white:

Hero goes all in, Villan calls $190 and shows K3o
Villan wins $530 pot.

I don't like open-limping. I'm a little lost after that as I never play limped pots.

River depends on the dynamics of the table. I tend to shove but people who play against me soon realize i like barreling a ton, so they tend to put me on a bluff a lot in such a spot.

Depends on villain and how much he likes to call. If he is the type that won't fold KJ under any circumstances (very possible at live 1/2) then shove. If villain has somewhat of a brain I'd probably bet 100 or so. In villains eyes u can be full, or have limped AK early so calling over pot shoves with mid trips may not seem too smart, whereas for a normal bet you can have a weaker K or JT

Oh also to address this

BelgoSuisse said:

I don't like open-limping. I'm a little lost after that as I never play limped pots.

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In live full ring, limping (intending to limp call) small pairs in early position is very very standard

Zybomb said:

In live full ring, limping (intending to limp call) small pairs in early position is very very standard

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Yeah, i know. I'm just not used to games where people don't get punished for doing that. Obviously in games where no one iso-raises you it's fine.

BelgoSuisse said:

Yeah, i know. I'm just not used to games where people don't get punished for doing that. Obviously in games where no one iso-raises you it's fine.

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In the majority of live games it isn't profitable to iso raise limpers, bc most pots will be contested multiway, thus your raise will be met with a few calls and the limper rarely will limp with hands he intends on folding to a raise and a few calls. So iso-raising just balloons a pot that you probably won't be able to profitably c-bet even bc of the amount of players in the hand

Shoving is super standard here.
Heck if he had $1000 chips behind here I'd shove.

Deco said:

Shoving is super standard here.
Heck if he had $1000 chips behind here I'd shove.

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If villains were bad I 100% agree.

But if villains had somewhat of a clue this is very very very bad as it will fold out many worse trips

Raise pre? One of the reasons I like raising pre with pocket pairs is it eliminates hands like K3o from the blinds. They get excited when they see a K, then sad when they see a 3, then fold.

All the times I've flopped a set - the hardest ones to get paid in are the ones in an unraised pot - or where you end up with the worst hand at the river because of a donk call or suckout or set over set.

By the time action gets around to villain (flop) there's $45 in the pot and it's $11 for him to call -

Not a lot you can do here. You never forced your opponent to make a mistake.

If he checks the river, and he's check/called you on every street - but remember - he was the BB, in an unraised pot - you can not take him off a hand like k3 k4 kq - because there has been no action to make any of those hands fold - and really the only time you could - not that he's going anywhere with KQ anyway. I would at least consider a check here.

Oh, and about the "no KQ/K4 cuz no check-raise on the flop" - some players when they flop 2pr and think it's best against an aggressive player will check/call, check/call, as long as somebody's doing the betting for them they're happy.

The only thing you could have done differently is 3x BB pre. That's it. Since you didn't, I'd say check down your boat to a scare card.

Of course, I run the risk of having an unpopular opinion.

Weregoat said:

I'd say check down your boat to a scare card.

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It's ok to have an unpopular opinion! Doesn't mean it won't get challenged, though...

Checking behind here imo is bad. It's a limped pot, Villain's shown no aggression, bare trips is a big part of his range here, and we want to get value from that. I agree that KQ/K4/KK/QQ are unlikely to be in his range on the river, which leaves exactly one holding that we're behind and several we're ahead of.

Personally, I prefer shoving the river like Deco, but I understand what Zybomb's saying.

Something I might do may not work for you but.. I would check behind on the flop and if he still checks I would overbet.. or if he raises I would shove. He has a much better chance getting all the money in earlier then after when you're not even sure what he has anymore.

It's a way to minimize losses and gain profits.

There are enough things that could have gone wrong on the river and since there is already so much in the pot I'm happy with a check win. I'm not against shoving and yeah I can see hoping he has trips and will call makes sense too. I would rarely raise with 44 preflop. Had he slowplayed any big flops before this? If he had that would get a check out of me.

I would almost never raise 44 UTG especially in a live ring game, as discussed pots are contensted multi-way and standard c-bets won't take it on the flop more often then not.


I don't feel PF that there was anything that could have gone differently, I would almost never raise in this spot.


On the river, i'd almost never check back as well, in the long run i'm losing a ton of value from trips and i'm losing to 1 hand in my mind K3. His shown no strength, and really I have no reason to think that my hand is not the best. Maybe it's just me, but that river King was not a "Scare" card, i felt it was definately my money card to rope villan for a decent river bet.

I've mentioned that this person is definately not capable of check/calling w/ hands that hit the flop hard KQ/K4, and he definately doesn't have KK/QQ/AK. He'd most likely over jizz himself preflop and make those hands known.


MY view of the villan is that he has half a brain and might fold trip Kings to a slight over bet. IF THIS WAS THE CASE, do I bet less?

TimmyOtool said:

On the river, i'd almost never check back as well


MY view of the villan is that he has half a brain and might fold trip Kings to a slight over bet. IF THIS WAS THE CASE, do I bet less?

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Anyone who advocates checking behind on this river is clinically insane or really really doesn't like money. Villain has been so passive and gives us no reason to believe a hand as big as ours should even consider checking - especially checking BEHIND. I suspect had you omitted the results, there wouldn't be one response along this line

As far as your last line this is exactly what I was suggesting in my original response. Against a moron who thinking goes something to the effect of "I have trips I check and if he bets I HAVE to call no matter what" we obviously shove. Against villains with half a brain, who realize your range could easily include 44, KQ AK, shoving trying to get value out of KT/KJ/K rag probably won't work (since at this point all Kx is, is a bluff catcher). On the other hand if you continue with "normal" sized betting, in villains eyes you could have KT or something like K8s (at 1/2 NL this isn't far fetched) or even a busted draw like JT, in which case it probably makes sense for him to look you up

Yea, good analysis.

I figured a bet from 75-100 would have gotten looked up from hands like KJ or worse, even from most villans.

I'm not sure how I'd figure out what is the more +EV play? Would the times I lose value from hands like <KJ outweigh the times I get called by K3/K4/KQ ?

TimmyOtool said:

I'm not sure how I'd figure out what is the more +EV play?

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It's just basically opponent dependent. Against spewtards we obviously shove, against nits we value bet. Since most opponents will fall somewhere in the middle, I'd say the more they like to showdown / overvalue hands the more I'd shove, and the better they are the more I'd value bet

You have a pair, just raise preflop. Live players don't fold trips, ever. It's not even that much of an overbet, just go allin.

Also I disagree with not isolating limpers. Maybe where you play but where I play that's where most of my money comes from. They limp and call with their pocket pairs and I bet almost all flops then if they raise I can snapfold but most of the time they'll check and fold their missed sets. Then that also sets up the dynamic where they're tired of folding to my bets when they miss their sets so they're never folding when they hit trips.

edit: oh and live players also don't count the pot very well so he won't even realize it's over pot most likely he'll just see he has trips and you're betting $190 and call.

What hand do you expect to get called with, that you beat, since you have already stated that he has already folded to at least one shove? Also since this was live, what physical tells are there. If this guy is a real fish like you said, he has got to be exploding with tells.