$200 NLHE Full Ring: Live cash game all-in decision

Here's memorable a hand I played at Foxwoods the other night that I'm not sure I played right, but even after thinking about it for 2 days I'm at a loss to think of a better way. I had about $300 in front and had been at the table for about a half an hour when this hand went down. It folded around to the CO who opened to $10 with about $250 behind. The Button folded and I looked down in the small blind at QQ and raised to $30. The BB folded and villain in the CO called. The pot was about $60. The flop came AA3 no draws.

A little history. I hadn't been at the table very long but I had formed an opinion of the villain. He's about 50, very personable, good sense of humor and seemed to know all the dealers and several of the other players at the table. While we were both waiting for a seat to open up I overheard him talking to a friend about a hand he had played where he bluff raised a player when checked to on the river. When his friend asked him if he was worried that the other player was trying to induce a bluff he remarked that the player in question always played his hand face up and didn't know the meaning of induce. I had also seen him make a correct read about another hand that happened a few hands earlier. My read of him is that he's loose, aggressive but not a typical $1/$2 donk.

So the flop is AA7, what to do? He raised PF but his CO opening range could be almost any 2 cards. His 3 bet calling range is certainly tighter than that, how much so I have no idea. This is a classic WAWB situation. Either he has an Ace and I'm toast or he doesn't and I'm killing him. Somehow I just know that if I check the flop he's going to bet which will tell me nothing. If I bet he's probably going to fold or 3 bet either for value or as a bluff knowing my most likely holding is AK, AQs or high pairs. In reality my 3 betting range is alot wider than that but he doesn't know that and in this case he'd be correct.

There's a third option. If you think about it, AK or AQ is almost always going to try to get some value by check raising and it seems to me that few $1/$2 players have the courage to checkraise in that position without an Ace making that the most likely way to represent one. If he comes over the top I can easily fold.

I check, he bets $30 and I raise to $75. He asks me how much I have left. I have him slightly covered but I give him a rough count and without much thought he move All-In.

So, do I stick with my plan or call? Also, what do you think about the check raise line? What would you do different?

As you said though, you dont get much information by checking to him. Therefore would it not be better to donk bet out and go from there. This gets value from non Ax hands and also if he raises you then you can easily get away from your hand and wait for a better spot where you can exploit his tendencies. May i ask how you played it??

check-raising here is ridiculous and is also ridiculous if you have AQ/AK.

you can bet the flop yourself or c/c or c/f. C/R is by far the nut low.

I dont like check raising this spot, it seems like you're basically turning your hand into a bluff where you're only going to fold out worse and get called by better in a spot he could very easily have better. The only value check raising has is if you get him to fold weakish aces and he probably doesnt have a rag ace plus I doubt you could get any ace to fold here anyway.

c/c or c/f seem plausable obviously it would suck to c/f this hand but no matter what line you take youre going to have a tough time in this hand since if he is a good player as you say its going to be hard to work out where you stand if you c/c and he bets the turn which seems pretty likely

leading out also seems good since you were the last agressor you're probably not going to get tons of infothough by betting if he calls. in that case youd probably be in a tough spot on the turn since a check might induce a bluff but also might get him to bet for value so you dont know where you stand.

I think c/c or c/f are best I might err on the side of c/f simply because I'm going to be put in a tough spot on the turn and I can probably wait for a better spot. even though my hand is pretty strong here and folding seems weak, I just feel like vs a decnt payer I'm going to find myself in too many diffcult spots by continuin.

As played you need to fold I'd think

I can easily CB here and then fold to a raise, all sorts of image reasons and with usual live games it's better to grind back a small loss than a large loss. I might even fire 2 bullets if villain flats the CB. C/R makes no sense against villains 3-bet flat range (he'd most likely 4-bet AA/KK) and his image.

As played, is making a hero call worth really worth it here? Villain has been given a perfect setup that he can easily use later in the game to recover his stack if you do call and are right or he will now have a good size stack to run over the table. Personally I don't want good players at my table to have a big stack.

the check call here will show more strenght, a cbet is a standard, and as u described this player u will get raised. the check raise is pretty weak for me if u have an ace why raising u want him to keep firing u r not representing the ace there so it easy for him to do so.
the play would be check call all the way.

Sorry for the delay in replying. I was working all day. I did get a chance to read some of the replies but I hate responding to posts on a smart phone. All the responses were good and well thought out except for one which was underservedly abrasive.

So nobody likes the checkraise. Well, that's OK, I'm not so sure I like it myself. But it is a sticky situation and not one I'm used to finding myself in at these limits.

My problem with Check calling is that I'm going to have to check the turn as well which shows real weakness and if he fires a 2nd barrel I'm going to have to fold without ever getting a sense for whether I'm ahead or behind. That to me seems like just throwing money out the window.

Check folding is better but my read on this player suggests that I'd be giving up the best hand more often than not. That's just opening up the lane for a layup. That's just not me.

I could bet out. This is probably the best play but I'm pretty sure I'd have to fire 2 rounds whether he has an ace or not. This would lead to a check call on the river. This would have the benefit of maximizing my win when I'm ahead but would be very expensive when I'm behind. Still I like this better than just check calling 3 streets but forgive me if I don't agree that check raising is the worst of my options. By check raising I get some value out of worse hands and get immediate information on whether I'm ahead or behind. Even if he just calls the check raise I'm probably done with the hand. As pointed out I'm probably never shaking a better hand loose.

So what happened? Recreational players at this limit don't bluff scary boards like this for $200 when they can easily be behind. I did my part, I repped the ace and I got my answer. Easy fold.

He then turned over 96s for a total bluff. Wow! huh? I wasn't mad in the least bit. I congratulated him on a hand well played and it really was. I got him talking and he said that he put me on KK or QQ. I do think his range was overly optimistic and if he knew me better he might not have made that play but in general he's right most of the time for these limits.

Knowing what I did at the time I think I had to fold but he did give off a subtle clue which I should have keyed into. I included it in the OP. Did any of you pick up on it?

1. Don't raise for information.
2. Don't check-raise this board with any hand.
3. C-R does not get you value out of worse hands.
4. Putting in more than 2 streets on this board is bad, no one has recommended this so not sure why you think it's necessary. This is a pretty standard b/f or c/c 1 street, 2 if it's cheap but basically giving up after flop or turn.

What Baudib said.

Also, might seem totally biased because you already posted results. However, if you are check/raising here then you really need to call the shove.

He is 3Bet range on this flop should contain zero value hands, as you found out. Is he really going to re raise you with AJ and fold out all your bluffs? (Not that you should have any)

Villain has some balls. You gotta give him that.

Maybe he spotted an involuntary reaction you had to the flop.

However, you 3-bet preflop. This means you could have JJ+, or A-K (IMO). So if you have A-K or AA you are probably not going to C/R here. Most live players will try to trap in these spots. So it is pretty clear you either have JJ, QQ, KK, and maybe (unlikely) AK.

It sounds to me like villain is a hell of a hand-reader.

If you ever find yourself at the table with him again, try to get reads on what he does when he actually smashed the flop. And furthermore, wait for a monster and trap him. Let him try and outplay you when you have the goods.

And lastly, if it seems like someone is trying to make you fold, many times they are. Honestly, why would he ever play trips like that anyways?

Of course, hindsight is 20/20.

I don't have a problem with how you played it. He could've had an Ace or KK. He could've had pocket 3s for a flopped full house. Not likely, but better to pick a better spot to make some money. I would've been pissed too when he showed his bluff, but what can you do.

I wouldve been calling here. Him asking you how much you have left is looking for weekness. you will catch him another day and live to tell his bluff you called him on cheers

baudib1 said:

1. Don't raise for information.
2. Don't check-raise this board with any hand.
3. C-R does not get you value out of worse hands.
4. Putting in more than 2 streets on this board is bad, no one has recommended this so not sure why you think it's necessary. This is a pretty standard b/f or c/c 1 street, 2 if it's cheap but basically giving up after flop or turn.

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1. Don't raise for information.
True but I assume you have no objection to using the information you get. This should really be rephrased as "Don't raise for information alone". My checkraise was for value as well as information. I truly believed I was ahead here most of the time.

2. Don't check-raise this board with any hand.
How about 72o?

3. C-R does not get you value out of worse hands.
Of course it does. Didn't I say say he seemed like the sort player who would bet just about any hand when checked to? Isn't that value?

4. Putting in more than 2 streets on this board is bad, no one has recommended this so not sure why you think it's necessary. This is a pretty standard b/f or c/c 1 street, 2 if it's cheap but basically giving up after flop or turn.
Checking the river after you bet the flop and turn is such a weak line that you have to expect him to take a stab at it. If he bets the river his range will be so polarized that a call is mandatory. Really, What kind of made hand is going to call down 2 streets and then bet the river for value? Either a monster that he slow played or backed into or air.

ScottishMatt said:

What Baudib said.

Also, might seem totally biased because you already posted results. However, if you are check/raising here then you really need to call the shove.

He is 3Bet range on this flop should contain zero value hands, as you found out. Is he really going to re raise you with AJ and fold out all your bluffs? (Not that you should have any)

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Well, he could have AK or AQ or a FH. Any of those hands would expect to get called by an Ace.

Stowie101 said:

I don't have a problem with how you played it. He could've had an Ace or KK. He could've had pocket 3s for a flopped full house. Not likely, but better to pick a better spot to make some money. I would've been pissed too when he showed his bluff, but what can you do.

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Oh no, I wasn't pissed at all, he impressed the hell out of me. I suspect the advertising was for meta game reasons. He probably expected me or someone else to call him down lightly later on.

tryin2winM said:

I wouldve been calling here. Him asking you how much you have left is looking for weekness. you will catch him another day and live to tell his bluff you called him on cheers

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You got it! He asked me how much I had left. I got bluffed out of a pot in a tournament earlier in the night and the guy asked me the same thing; what do you have left? Sometimes I'll here this when a big stack want's to know whether he's getting the right odds to call a short stacks all in. That's an honest inquiry. However, it may be a reliable tell when they come over the top after asking that question. I think it may be an attempt to feign strength. Unfortunately that didn't occur to me at the time.

Four Dogs said:

1. Don't raise for information.
True but I assume you have no objection to using the information you get. This should really be rephrased as "Don't raise for information alone". My checkraise was for value as well as information. I truly believed I was ahead here most of the time.

2. Don't check-raise this board with any hand.
How about 72o?

3. C-R does not get you value out of worse hands.
Of course it does. Didn't I say say he seemed like the sort player who would bet just about any hand when checked to? Isn't that value?

4. Putting in more than 2 streets on this board is bad, no one has recommended this so not sure why you think it's necessary. This is a pretty standard b/f or c/c 1 street, 2 if it's cheap but basically giving up after flop or turn.
Checking the river after you bet the flop and turn is such a weak line that you have to expect him to take a stab at it. If he bets the river his range will be so polarized that a call is mandatory. Really, What kind of made hand is going to call down 2 streets and then bet the river for value? Either a monster that he slow played or backed into or air.

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I'll just sum it up with this: You should probably stop check-raising flops at all because it doesn't seem like you know what you hope to accomplish by check-raising. Furthermore, check-raising this hand on this board probably means that your leading/donking/c-c ranges suck.

Four Dogs said:

1. Don't raise for information.
True but I assume you have no objection to using the information you get. This should really be rephrased as "Don't raise for information alone". My checkraise was for value as well as information. I truly believed I was ahead here most of the time.

2. Don't check-raise this board with any hand.
How about 72o?

3. C-R does not get you value out of worse hands.
Of course it does. Didn't I say say he seemed like the sort player who would bet just about any hand when checked to? Isn't that value?

4. Putting in more than 2 streets on this board is bad, no one has recommended this so not sure why you think it's necessary. This is a pretty standard b/f or c/c 1 street, 2 if it's cheap but basically giving up after flop or turn.
Checking the river after you bet the flop and turn is such a weak line that you have to expect him to take a stab at it. If he bets the river his range will be so polarized that a call is mandatory. Really, What kind of made hand is going to call down 2 streets and then bet the river for value? Either a monster that he slow played or backed into or air.

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1. Stick to what you know, value or bluff. If you aren't raising for these reasons primarily, then you are doing it wrong. The fact that you aren't sure how to interpret the information you get proves that you should just be keeping it simple. Whether you are ahead or not is irrelevant, you could be ahead of him every single time here and raising would still be bad, it's not about what you beat, it's about what you beat that will call.

2. You should never have 72o here.

3. See point one. You are struggling to make the distinction between what he bets as a bluff with and what he calls a check/raise with. Two completely different ranges there.

4. If you feel he is bluffing all the way here with his air hands, then call down. If you feel he will bluff two streets then call two. If you feel he is only firing one on this board, then call one.

As for your comment in reply to mine. He isn't shoving AQ here ever. If he has AQ and he puts you on KK/QQ why is he going to raise and fold out your range which is weaker than him?

ScottishMatt said:

As for your comment in reply to mine. He isn't shoving AQ here ever. If he has AQ and he puts you on KK/QQ why is he going to raise and fold out your range which is weaker than him?

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I totally disagree. Alot/Most players shove AQ or AK in this spot, especially after a check raise. He raised from the CO so my range is going to include alot of medium strength hands. If my hand is good enough to checkraise it's probably good enough to call a shove. Also his shove was for probably around $200. That's alot but there's about $160 already in the pot. Whether it's AK, AQ or a FH a shove gets called by any ace. Why wait?

Four Dogs said:

I totally disagree. Alot/Most players shove AQ or AK in this spot, especially after a check raise. He raised from the CO so my range is going to include alot of medium strength hands. If my hand is good enough to checkraise it's probably good enough to call a shove. Also his shove was for probably around $200. That's alot but there's about $160 already in the pot. Whether it's AK, AQ or a FH a shove gets called by any ace. Why wait?

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If he has AQ here and you have an ace then that is the end of the hand. There is no way the money is not going in, end of. Against the Ax portion of your range the hand has already played out. His decision is irrelevant and he knows that, so he is going to base his action upon how to extract the most from the non-Ax portion of your range. By shoving he loses any value he could have netted, so he isn't going to do that.

I'm not saying players won't X/R AQ in your spot, nor shove it in his spot, but if they do then they are a fish. We've already established he isn't a fish. He isn't going to play against you the same way he is against a fish. Neither should you instill some sort of fish POV when analysing a hand from his perspective.

ScottishMatt said:

If he has AQ here and you have an ace then that is the end of the hand. There is no way the money is not going in, end of. Against the Ax portion of your range the hand has already played out. His decision is irrelevant and he knows that, so he is going to base his action upon how to extract the most from the non-Ax portion of your range. By shoving he loses any value he could have netted, so he isn't going to do that.

I'm not saying players won't X/R AQ in your spot, nor shove it in his spot, but if they do then they are a fish. We've already established he isn't a fish. He isn't going to play against you the same way he is against a fish. Neither should you instill some sort of fish POV when analysing a hand from his perspective.

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I'm not disagreeing with what your saying in principle, but in practice it's another story. Even though I'm assuming he's a decent player, I'm not assuming he's Tom Dwan and I'm also assuming that he doesn't think I am either. I know he said that he put me on Kings or Queens but as the hand went down I assumed that he had to put me on an ace after the checkraise.

In low limit poker, (1/2 is low limit live) a 3 bet usually means what it's supposed to mean. I can probably count on one hand the times I've seen someone fold to a shove after 3 betting or checkraising. If you have a hand which rates to be good you get it in when you can and that's what I assumed he was doing. I was wrong but IMO so was he. IMO his shove was a tad optimistic. He shouldn't have assumed I couldn't have an Ace as my Ax combos (16 if you only count AK and AQ) outnumbered my KK QQ combos (12) and he shouldn't have assumed I'd fold Kings or Queens because most $1/$2 players won't.

Villain is a fish if he's flatting 3-bets with 96s on 100 BB stacks.

If my hand is good enough to checkraise

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your hand is not "good enough" to check-raise, that's the problem. If you are check-raising to induce max spazz that would be based on a lot of history/meta that is not included in your analysis. The fact that you have the 2nd-worst possible hand in this spot to check-raise seems completely lost on you.

Hero was C/R as a bluff obviously.

And villain is just a total LAG. It does not make sense why anyone holding an ace would try and push everyone out. Of course the whole thing is biased because I know the results.

But I do know one thing: If it seems like someone is trying to make you fold - they probably are (especially live).

His shove was optimistic, very. As was your X/R.

Next time keep it simple and X/C one street. Then re-evaluate.

Flatting 96s pre was pretty loose, but he also had the hand reading capability to make something of it post flop. As a side note concerning preflop, I would size it larger seeing as you are OOP, maybe something like $38.

I mean we got Yeti-ed and Yeti hasn't even been valid since like 2006.

baudib1 said:

Villain is a fish if he's flatting 3-bets with 96s on 100 BB stacks.



your hand is not "good enough" to check-raise, that's the problem. If you are check-raising to induce max spazz that would be based on a lot of history/meta that is not included in your analysis. The fact that you have the 2nd-worst possible hand in this spot to check-raise seems completely lost on you.

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That was my best guess at his thinking and I think it holds up well in most cases.

Baudib, I think you said that check raising was the worst option? Even worse than check folding. Since check folding has zero value I guess that means you think that check raising is negative EV and it may well be. As I said, I'm not thrilled with the way I played it. If I was I wouldn't have posted the hand. But tell me how you would have played it? An over card to a Queen will hit the flop almost 50% of the time, you can't just let these kind of situations go that easily. Fire one and shut down if called? Is that your idea of solid play? seems very exploitable.

ScottishMatt said:

His shove was optimistic, very. As was your X/R.

Next time keep it simple and X/C one street. Then re-evaluate.

Flatting 96s pre was pretty loose, but he also had the hand reading capability to make something of it post flop. As a side note concerning preflop, I would size it larger seeing as you are OOP, maybe something like $38.

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Big raises scream big pairs which makes hand reading that much easier. 3x+/- is my standard raise whether AK, QQ or total air. I'm not sure how a larger raise will make it easier to play OOP which is going to happen regardless unless I blow him out of the water PF which I don't want to do. Still $38 is in the ball park and most players will probably hang around for the extra 8 bucks.