$200 NLHE Full Ring: Live Cash Hand- Could 4th pair be good?

This from a live cash game at Foxwoods this past weekend. The game is $1/$2nl. About 1hr into the session. My image is probably a little tighter than usual due to lack playable hands and or opportunities. With one EP limper I raised to 7 from the CO with 56s and get 3 bet to $14 from the BB. BB is young guy who seems at home at the table hasn't played a lot of hands. The original limpet folds and I call. The pot is $31. This might be a fold but since he's been mostly inactive his range is really limited to primos JJ-AA or AK, AQ. If the board is low I may be able to outplay him post flop.

The flop comes 86J rainbow. He bets only $10 into $31 which to me seems really weak for the high pairs. JJ is a possibility but most live players try to get fancy with big hands. I would expect a slow play. The bet is so small that a float is a no brainer. I call $10. The pot is $51.

The turn is a 7 giving me an OESD. Again he bets $10. Whatever he has at this point I'm not folding 6:1 direct pot odds. I call.

The river is a 2. I've missed my draw and am left with nothing but 4th pair. The pot is $71. He bets $40. Finally a real bet. Fold, call, raise? I think you all know what I did, but what would you do? Please explain.

Almost a min-3-bet, then he makes LOL horible call-me bets and then goes for value on the river? I'd have to fold.

I would have folded preflop or raised larger like $13+ but I'm assuming that your read was the players behind you would give you credit for a better hand instead of just inflating the pot.

I think 6.5x is a little large. For me, the smaller the better. Live players rarely pay attention to the size of a bet and they never go away preflop. You win by raising in position and then c-betting the flop.

As far as the rest of the hand goes, except for the flop and turn bet sizes, IMO he played excactly as he would with a top or an over pair. I hadn't really shown a lot of strength so no reason for a high pair not to go for value on the river. I would have.

Folding preflop would not be bad except for the damage it would do to my table image. Folding to such a weak reraise screams weakness and would kill my ability to steal pots from late position.

fold, small bet, small bet, bigger bet is a stando fish line for a big hand. They dont want to blow you out of the pot on flop + turn but then realise they have won like 10BBs so try and make up for it by betting way bigger than previous streets on the river. EZ fold I expect to see 9s, Ts some of the time aswell

Jurn8 said:

fold, small bet, small bet, bigger bet is a stando fish line for a big hand. They dont want to blow you out of the pot on flop + turn but then realise they have won like 10BBs so try and make up for it by betting way bigger than previous streets on the river. EZ fold I expect to see 9s, Ts some of the time aswell

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Interesting take. It seems just the opposite to me, at least as far as live poker goes. Preflop bets are usually in the 8-10xbb range because they're all afraid to see a flop, or any additional cards at all for that matter. They give up whenever they see an ace (unless they have one in which case they hold on for dear life) and they're always (mostly) afraid of being drawn out on even when their are no likely draws on the board. In live poker weak usually means weak and strong usually means strong.

So when you say fold preflop, do you mean fold outright or fold to the 3 bet, or both?

i didnt say fold preflop, I said fold river

Folding river. People rarely 3barrel with air and like jurn said that's a super standard vbet line for a fish

bgomez89 said:

Folding river. People rarely 3barrel with air and like jurn said that's a super standard vbet line for a fish

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It does take balls to 3 barrel and I have to give him credit for that. Fortunately for me I didn't. The board was so low that I didn't think any of the cards helped his preflop range. bluffing the river when it's the only way to win the hand is also common. I tanked for over a minute and made the call. He showed AQ and I took down $150 pot.

Four Dogs said:

This might be a fold but since he's been mostly inactive his range is really limited to primos JJ-AA or AK, AQ.

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Four Dogs said:

The board was so low that I didn't think any of the cards helped his preflop range.

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This is a bit contradictory imo

Aldito said:

This is a bit contradictory imo

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His PF 3bet range is high cards and high pairs. The board is all low. How is that contradictory?

First off, nice call on the river. Its hard to say what I would have done, I would have to rely on my feeling at that point.

Personally, if I'm not folding on the flop, I would have re-raised him. You can get the most information on his hand at this point. If he is c-betting on a missed flop, he will likely fold and you can take down a medium size pot. If he calls, you can probably assume he has a piece or a PP.

It also gives you control of the hand if he flat calls. If he has a made hand or nothing but two over cards, he will likely check the turn to you. At which point you can decide to take a free card or continue trying to take down the pot without a showdown.

I always prefer to force decisions on my opponent, rather than be forced, whenever the situation is set up to do so.When people are forced to make a decision, they tend to make the predictable play.

rw11687 said:

First off, nice call on the river. Its hard to say what I would have done, I would have to rely on my feeling at that point.

Personally, if I'm not folding on the flop, I would have re-raised him. You can get the most information on his hand at this point. If he is c-betting on a missed flop, he will likely fold and you can take down a medium size pot. If he calls, you can probably assume he has a piece or a PP.

It also gives you control of the hand if he flat calls. If he has a made hand or nothing but two over cards, he will likely check the turn to you. At which point you can decide to take a free card or continue trying to take down the pot without a showdown.

I always prefer to force decisions on my opponent, rather than be forced, whenever the situation is set up to do so.When people are forced to make a decision, they tend to make the predictable play.

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If I had missed the flop completely I might have raised him and folded to a 3 bet, any 3 bet regardless of size. But I actually think I have a chance of being good. I could have bet for value and folded to a 3 bet but I'm not sure what kind of worse hand would have called. I think flatting and reevaluating on the turn was slightly better.

Four Dogs said:

If I had missed the flop completely I might have raised him and folded to a 3 bet, any 3 bet regardless of size. But I actually think I have a chance of being good. I could have bet for value and folded to a 3 bet but I'm not sure what kind of worse hand would have called. I think flatting and reevaluating on the turn was slightly better.

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The problem with flatting is that if another dud falls on the turn and he bets out, your not any closer to knowing where he is in the hand. A re raise will at the very least limit the range of hands you can put him on, and best case win the pot right there. Bottom pair is extremely difficult to play without any info. By letting him continue to take control of the hand, your in no better position than when he reraised preflop. His range was never shrunken, for the lack of a better word.

But thats the beauty of poker, so many ways to play and still take down a pot.

rw11687 said:

The problem with flatting is that if another dud falls on the turn and he bets out, your not any closer to knowing where he is in the hand.

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I don't know about that. I think you can suss out a lot of information from a float, especially in live poker where the players are on a whole, less sophisticated than on-line. Say he checks the turn, I can safely bet behind for value and perhaps get a call from AK, AQ (but probably not) or check the turn and hopefully induce a bluff on the river.

If he bets again (as he did) I can fold should I determine he's too weak a player to barrel as a bluff, or call (as I did) if I sense weakness which is alot easier live than on-line.

rw11687 said:

A re raise will at the very least limit the range of hands you can put him on, and best case win the pot right there. Bottom pair is extremely difficult to play without any info.

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That's the thing right there. Weak made hands are hard to play so we have a tendency to want to "end the pain" there and then without a fight. But other than being in an uncomfortable situation, inducing a fold from a worse hand is not the best case, it's the worst case. I may indeed get valuable information from a raise but I'm not sure that information is worth the price of admission. By just calling I do two things, I keep the pot small with a hand of questionable strength and I put him in the uncomfortable position of having to act before me again on the turn. Remember, I did raise preflop and called a flop bet. He can't be sure I'll fold to a second barrel. I think betting in this case would help him more than me.

rw11687 said:

But thats the beauty of poker, so many ways to play and still take down a pot.

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Too true

bgomez89 said:

Folding river. People rarely 3barrel with air and like jurn said that's a super standard vbet line for a fish

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Im with these guys, looks like a standard fish value line. But I fold to the 3-bet. A live player's 3-bet range has you so retardedly crushed here.

This is true, which is why I was so sure about his range. Folding PF was probably the best move from a purely EV stand point, but I guess I was more concerned with the damage it would do to my table image if I folded to such a weak raise. This was only 1 or 2 hours into the session and for all I knew I could be facing these same people for another 5 or 6.
Thanks for the comments.

Adjust your game to your image, dont let the image you want dictate your game. If people assume you're weak, then you'll get more action when you have the real deal.

raise more pre, prob fold pre, def fold river. You dont even know for sure that he barrels his AQ/AK on turn let alone river so you could be facing JJ+ 100% of the time.

duggs said:

raise more pre, prob fold pre, def fold river. You dont even know for sure that he barrels his AQ/AK on turn let alone river so you could be facing JJ+ 100% of the time.

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That was advanced for this limit, especially live. He read me as weak and kept after me. Still something about the flop and turn bet sizing seemed not right for a made hand.

Dont pay nits off imo, fold river