$200 NLHE Full Ring: LIVE - AKo vs. flat/shove villain & short-stack shove

3betfish

3betfish

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LIVE - $1/$3 No limit hold'em, 8-9 handed

  • WHAT SHOULD HERO DO AND WHY?



Hero stack: $700Villain 1 (V1) stack: $210
Villain 2 (V2) stack: $60


Hero looks down at AKo from the BB.
Actions folds to V2 who is in the cut-off.
V2, an OMC, raises to $10.
V1 from the SB calls $9.
Hero raises to $50.
V2 shoves remaining $50 (total bet of $60).
V1 decides to insta-shove his remaining stack......? for another $200 ($210 total)
Hero.................................?


pot: $320, hero needs ~$160 more to call
 
Jblocher1

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LIVE - $1/$3 No limit hold'em, 8-9 handed

  • WHAT SHOULD HERO DO AND WHY?



Hero stack: $700Villain 1 (V1) stack: $210
Villain 2 (V2) stack: $60


Hero looks down at AKo from the BB.
Actions folds to V2 who is in the cut-off.
V2, an OMC, raises to $10.
V1 from the SB calls $9.
Hero raises to $50.
V2 shoves remaining $50 (total bet of $60).
V1 decides to insta-shove his remaining stack......? for another $200 ($210 total)
Hero.................................?


pot: $320, hero needs ~$160 more to call



We are way ahead of V2's 30BB jam range so the question is where are we against V1's range and I find it very unlikely he has AA/KK as he called the original open and didn't 3 bet and we also block both so we are flipping or dominating V1 most likely. Im calling here for sure
 
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Gildog89

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Do we have any information on V1 and V2? You have a decent stack, so you must have some information here?


In the absence of information, I'm folding AK here. I don't like coin flips vs. 2 villains. Too often you are up against a pocket pair and a hand holding at least one of the cards you need to make a pair (this is usually an ace by the shorter stack). Your only 33% to scoop the pot in that scenario....so its not really a flip anymore.
 
3betfish

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Do we have any information on V1 and V2? You have a decent stack, so you must have some information here?

In the absence of information, I'm folding AK here. I don't like coin flips vs. 2 villains. Too often you are up against a pocket pair and a hand holding at least one of the cards you need to make a pair (this is usually an ace by the shorter stack). Your only 33% to scoop the pot in that scenario....so its not really a flip anymore.
Found out V1 had AKo as well, so scooping would be substantially less than 33% :(
We are way ahead of V2's 30BB jam range so the question is where are we against V1's range and I find it very unlikely he has AA/KK as he called the original open and didn't 3 bet and we also block both so we are flipping or dominating V1 most likely. Im calling here for sure
I was thinking that exact same thing regarding the blockers when I was tanking and that he couldn't have AA or KK. But V1 ended up having QQ, and V1 had AKo as well. So if we are playing more explotative rather than ABC, would this be a fold? QQ > AK and V1 has blockers to our outs.

Snap fold
I tank folded. I found out I was up against QQ (V2) and AKo (V1). Was already deepest stack at the table and could've walked away with $900+ because the board ran out with two aces lol... But QQ > AKo anyway, so I made the right decision. It sucks when you know you could've made a shit ton at the table, but the game is all about making the correct moves.

End of session photo:
76126b736fa498a1bb6975e836c4ba03.png
 
c9h13no3

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Call is the right decision here, given the money already in the pot. Don't be results oriented because your opponent had AN in this spot.
 
mbrenneman0

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QQ/AK is the bottom of the deepstacks range here. People just dont 4bet in live 1/2 and when they do, its because they have a monster hand. Unless you have specific informstion that this opennent is capable of 4bet jamming worse than AK, just fold.
 
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3betfish

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QQ/AK is the bottom of the deepstacks range here. People just dont 4bet in live 1/2 and when they do, its because they have a monster hand. Unless you have specific informstion that this opennent is capable of 4bet jamming worse than AK, just fold.

Only info I have is that he plays regularly twice a week, buys in for $200, doesn’t add on when SS - just reloads when bust, plays fit or fold post flop, and doesn’t raise often preflop except for pocket pairs (as long as 66 I think)
 
c9h13no3

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QQ/AK is the bottom of the deepstacks range here. People just dont 4bet in live 1/2 and when they do, its because they have a monster hand. Unless you have specific informstion that this opennent is capable of 4bet jamming worse than AK, just fold.
This is a legitimate viewpoint to have, I just disagree with it. As opposed to people who are just dead wrong in other threads, you could be right. I agree, no one really 4-bets as a bluff at live 1/2. Our opponent at least thinks his hand is good enough not to fold and has a shot at it if called.

But I personally think that the action makes villain shoving lighter a possibility. Lots of live players want to see a flop with no overs before they commit much with 99-KK preflop, and then decide they can shove it in once someone else shows initiative. But I could be wrong. I'd put villain #1's range at something like TT-KK, AK.
 
3betfish

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I agree, no one really 4-bets as a bluff at live 1/2. Our opponent at least thinks his hand is good enough not to fold and has a shot at it if called.


that was actually my deciding factor towards my fold. (3-bets and 4-bets being rare in live 1/3 or 1/2 nlhe)
 
Limited_Al

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I think I would have folded AK once both shoves were made. I’m putting small stack villian on AK AQs or a high pocket pair coin flip.

I put villian #2 on KK or AA because he knows that you have raised and would be wanting you to call. So I expect he wants to see a showdown.


I can’t fault your raise though, as their hands initially looked weak and you had a good opportunity to get the small stack all in
 
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Gildog89

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This is a legitimate viewpoint to have, I just disagree with it. As opposed to people who are just dead wrong in other threads, you could be right. I agree, no one really 4-bets as a bluff at live 1/2. Our opponent at least thinks his hand is good enough not to fold and has a shot at it if called.

But I personally think that the action makes villain shoving lighter a possibility. Lots of live players want to see a flop with no overs before they commit much with 99-KK preflop, and then decide they can shove it in once someone else shows initiative. But I could be wrong. I'd put villain #1's range at something like TT-KK, AK.
I agree with your range on the larger stacked villain here being something like 99+, AK. The problem for me is the presence of the short stack villain who almost always has one of your outs. In this case, it was reversed, but this is usually the scenario your looking at. If you give the small stack a range of A2s+, ATo+,22+,KQs,KQo and put it in equilab, you have 29% equity. If you factor stack sizes into these ranges, equity comes down from there. That's why I think fold is better ev.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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29% equity is a ton when there's already $150 in the pot...

Essentially it boils down to this: do you think villain1's range has QQ and AK? If so, there's too much money in the pot to fold. Yes, you are a 60/40 dog in the side pot, but your equity in the main pot is worth more than the potential losses in the side pot.
 
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Gildog89

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OK, so I took out V2 in equilab and put an ace in as a dead card. I was surprised that we still have 38.5% equity in the side pot and the 29% equity in the main pot. So I guess the stack sizes actually improve our equity here. The main pot is $170 and the side pot is $150. So, if we call, we have .29x($170+10)=$52.20 plus .385x(150+150)=$115.50 equals $167.70 in equity with the ranges I used. We have to call $160 to get back $167.70 on average. The call is +$6.70 ev.

I stand corrected. The math says you should call here. Of course, a lot is going to depend on the ranges you assign. If you tighten up v1's range to JJ+,AK (I am just noticing he is OMC), it becomes marginally incorrect to call.

Anyway, this is a good exercise for away from the table so you know your approximate equity in multiway with side pots. Good thread.
 
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