$200 NLHE Full Ring: Live $1/$3 - Multiway pot with drunk spewy villain

6

6bet me

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2015
Total posts
835
Chips
0
I played this hand last night at my local casino. Blinds are $1/$3 with a max buy-in of $200. Hero has a somewhat loose-aggressive table image and has been caught check-raising flush draws on the flop. But that's nothing compared to the SB villain who is completely drunk and acting like a spewy maniac. He's been donking out on flops almost 100% of the time, as well as raising Cbets and bluff shoving non-stop since he sat down. He's folded maybe 2 out of the last 20 hands he played, and only when he was faced with an all-in bet postflop. Then there's another villain in MP1 who is somewhat passive but also fairly suspicious about me and seems to think I'm bluffing more often than I actually am. He's not a complete calling station though: I did bluff him off of top pair an hour ago when I check-shoved the flop with a flush draw (we both showed our hands afterwards). He's been gradually calling me down looser since. The other players on the table are your average $1/$3 fish, but even they notice that the SB villain is a complete maniac who has been bluffing non-stop.

Hero (UTG) has a $350 stack
Drunk villain (SB) has a $200 stack
Suspicious villain (MP1) has a $700 stack
Other fishy villains all have around $200 stacks

Hero is dealt 77
Hero opens to $18
UTG+1 calls $18
Suspicious villain (MP1) calls $18
BTN calls $18
Drunk villain (SB) calls $17
BB calls $15
Everyone else folded

$100 in pot (6 players)
Flop shows 432 rainbow

Drunk villain shoves ALL-IN for $180
BB folds
Hero shoves ALL-IN for $330

What do you think about the way hero played this hand?
 
TimovieMan

TimovieMan

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 16, 2016
Total posts
2,264
Chips
0
Given your reads, what else are you going to do?

We can't fold vs this guy, and we can't flat hoping the third guy enters as well, because we'll be left with less than a half-pot sized bet for the turn. We're committed at this point. Get it in.
Nh.
 
6

6bet me

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2015
Total posts
835
Chips
0
Calling is never an option: it's shove or fold. But I just wasn't sure if I should be re-shoving 110bbs with a weak overpair and 3 players still to act behind. There's a decent chance that one of them has a set or a better overpair than me, isn't there? Or should I just ride the waves of variance and hope for the best?
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Total posts
4,966
Awards
1
Chips
1
I'm not saying you played it wrong, but I would have played it a little different.

I would have just rocked the open-limp here. We can call raises to set-mine (within reason), and our hand doesn't play that well postflop, especially in MW pots OOP.

Now, as played, I think shove is ok, but we will be FUBAR if someone calls us IP.

We honestly could make a nitty fold here too, if only because there are 4 others in this hand. Just because we have the drunk dude (hopefully), doesn't mean we have everyone else. The last thing we want is someone saying "call". Then, we are in real trouble.

This is a really tough spot.

So I like limp/call pre.

Not sure about shoving here, I probably lean towards a fold. Hopefully, drunk dude has it, gets doubled up, and we can get free money from him later. After all, we only have $18 in pot. But I'm a nit, and maybe I fold too much.
 
Last edited:
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Total posts
4,966
Awards
1
Chips
1
I should have explained a bit more about why I limp here.

We want to see MW pots with 7-7. If we flop a set, hopefully one of them connected, and gives us action. We still did go MW, but we probably invested more than we had to (maybe). If we limp, someone may have raised anyway...

As played, even if drunk dude checks, I don't know if we even c-bet this board 6w, probably, but if we get raised, we would be in a shitty spot.
 
6

6bet me

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2015
Total posts
835
Chips
0
The issue I have with limp-calling is it allows someone to choose a much bigger raise size, like $25 instead of $18. It also gives them the betting initiative and it means I can't bluff Cbet the flops which I miss. And it turns my hand face up: I'd only be limp-calling with suited connectors and small pocket pairs, so any decent villain would recognise this and could play much better against me. If I open-raise to $18, then they have to worry about me having AA/KK and thus they probably won't 3bet me without KK+.

Although if the players are really awful, then I could see limp-calling small pocket pairs from EP a viable strategy.
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Total posts
4,966
Awards
1
Chips
1
The issue I have with limp-calling is it allows someone to choose a much bigger raise size, like $25 instead of $18. It also gives them the betting initiative and it means I can't bluff Cbet the flops which I miss. And it turns my hand face up: I'd only be limp-calling with suited connectors and small pocket pairs, so any decent villain would recognise this and could play much better against me. If I open-raise to $18, then they have to worry about me having AA/KK and thus they probably won't 3bet me without KK+.

Although if the players are really awful, then I could see limp-calling small pocket pairs from EP a viable strategy.

Most of the tables I find myself at are with pretty bad opponents. So it works well for me (open limp).

However, due to position, I still think limping is ok for you too. If someone prices us out for setmining, big deal... we spent $2 to try.
 
IPlay

IPlay

Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Total posts
2,593
Chips
0
I don't mind the raise pre and I think we just have to GII on flop even though I wouldn't be that thrilled about it.
 
Trabendo_daze

Trabendo_daze

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Total posts
416
Awards
1
Chips
0
I think 77 is just on the border between raising and considering limping and maybe even folding from UTG. I think you bring up a good point Matt about you limiting your limping range to SC and PP but I don't think that people are thinking enough to 1. catch that 2. adjust accordingly.

I like limping especially if everyone is passive and we rarely run into raise re-raise, but raising has to be okay too since we will almost never get raised behind...

OTF this is gross because he over bets so you're getting quite a bad price. I have to imagine we are doing quite well against his ATC, but I do worry someone will call behind with decent equity. I think you could argue folding just because you have so many to act behind and you're only getting 1.5:1 meaning you have to win 40% of the time. Sure if other people enter then we will have to win less frequently, but yeah it's only close because of the bad price. Definitely a close spot.
 
6

6bet me

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2015
Total posts
835
Chips
0
Results:
I shoved the flop and got tank-called by "suspicious villain" who had QQ (I thought he would've 3bet that preflop).
Drunk spewy villain had K5s (so surprisingly he actually had some equity this time... he wasn't shoving complete air haha).

Drunk spewy villain rivered a straight and won the main pot. Suspicious villain's QQ held up against my 77 and he won the side pot.
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Total posts
4,966
Awards
1
Chips
1
Results:
I shoved the flop and got tank-called by "suspicious villain" who had QQ (I thought he would've 3bet that preflop).
Drunk spewy villain had K5s (so surprisingly he actually had some equity this time... he wasn't shoving complete air haha).

Drunk spewy villain rivered a straight and won the main pot. Suspicious villain's QQ held up against my 77 and he won the side pot.


I know results are irrelevant. That being said...


Let's say we open limp here. Then, suspicious villain raises to $15, or whatever. Well, now we know suspicious V has something here. We also get info if/when other players call, or 3b, or whatever. We could easily call to setmine, this is because we are OOP and in a MW spot (a great place to setmine). We call with the sole intention of hitting a set. Sometimes, we can still outplay people postflop, but it's going to be tough (even if we are the PFR) when we are in such early position.

As opposed to you opening, and people flat calling. You really have no idea what anyone has, and you are out of position.

I don't think it's necessary to raise PF, posiibly be c-bet bluffing, etc, when in our position at a full ring game.

We don't have to win every pot. It is really tough OOP to outplay villains postflop.
 
6

6bet me

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2015
Total posts
835
Chips
0
To me it just feels criminal to open limp preflop... like everything I've been taught in my 16 months of playing poker has been specifically NOT to open limp preflop. I've always been taught that limp-calling is something that only fish do, whilst good regs will take the initiative by either raising or folding.

I don't know if I can bring myself to open limp preflop tbh. There's got to be a way to beat these games without having to resort to that passive fishy behaviour. Why bring myself down to their level?
 
TimovieMan

TimovieMan

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 16, 2016
Total posts
2,264
Chips
0
If the table is passive enough, I'd have no problem open-limping small pocket pairs from early position.

Of course, since I play online 6-max only, that translates into "never" for me (unless I misclick). But full ring live? Sure, why not?
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Total posts
4,966
Awards
1
Chips
1
To me it just feels criminal to open limp preflop... like everything I've been taught in my 16 months of playing poker has been specifically NOT to open limp preflop. I've always been taught that limp-calling is something that only fish do, whilst good regs will take the initiative by either raising or folding.

I don't know if I can bring myself to open limp preflop tbh. There's got to be a way to beat these games without having to resort to that passive fishy behaviour. Why bring myself down to their level?


Why is it fishy to open limp? Explain this to me like I am 3 years old.

Who taught you this? Tell me that also.


I used to think the same way. Someone opened my eyes since then.


These villains are not good you're playing against. It is live, full ring poker. Dude that had QQ should have 3b, but he didn't. Instead, this fish takes a 6w flop with QQ. Obviously, this dude is a drooler. These people aren't going to exploit you. I sincerely doubt anyone is paying enough attention.


You are playing this game to win right? You want to win money? Money saved is money earned. Your goal in this spot should be to flop a set, or get out. You don't have to fight for every single pot you play. And if you must raise, UTG, then wait until you get a better hand than 7-7. It's not going to play well OOP postflop.

Tell me in this spot, what is your plan for postflop... what if flop come K-10-2r? What will you do? Or if it comes A-8-3hh? Or let's say Q-J-6ss. What is your plan in a 6w pot on any of these flops? Just about every flop that doesn't have a "7" in it, is bad for you in a 6w pot.

Even if you have overpair to the board, some dipshit will have a straight draw, or flush draw, then they call. Then, some nasty 10, J, Q, K, A comes off on the turn. Now do we keep betting? Probably still have 2 or 3 villains in with ya.

You made a comment about controlling the raise size. It's almost like you feel you absolutely have to see this flop with 7-7. It's pretty simple though, you limp in, if someone raises, you determine if you have enough IO to setmine (bare minimum 10x for me, but I prefer 15x+). If you don't have correct odds, then fold. Who cares? On to the next hand.

It seems like you have this mindset like you must win every pot you enter. That's just not going to happen.


I've given some hypothetical scenarios, and reasons why we can open limp here. Give me some reasons why you must raise.



Edit:
Live low stakes poker is a beast. It plays differently than almost any other game. Micros online are different. Many books simply don't apply to live. 3x raise sizing would be one example. The villains are just so bad, and so passive, and stationy pre and postflop, that we must make some adjustments.
 
Last edited:
S

Simplex

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 15, 2015
Total posts
131
Chips
0
I don't like it. You have over half the table in the hand. And you're jamming 77 . Enough said.
 
Figaroo2

Figaroo2

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Total posts
7,363
Awards
16
Chips
13
The whole table dynamics are set by the maniac in the SB and unless you have a premium hand you are happy to go to war preflop with I would just limp in and wait to see what he does.
Its been mentioned already but we are only really looking to spike a set here as cheap as possible or get out. OOP 77 in a multiway pot is impossible to play without a set or trips. Your implied odds are massive, I'd limp call all my small pairs the times he was to act after me.
As played with 4 persons still to act, I would fold, there is too much chance someone will have us beaten. And if you had limped pre its usually a cheaper easier fold.

You had good table position on him, play against these types in position and don't try to bluff them. Isolate them with smaller 3bets and bet when you have a hand and fold when you miss.
 
Last edited:
Organize a Home Poker Game
Top