$200 NLHE Full Ring: KQ as a value bet in this situation???

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pyrotheassassin

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I was playing live $1/$3 at a local casino recently when this hand came up. I start this hand with $166 and have the villian covered. The villian in this hand is immediately to my left in hijack. I have only played about 20 hands with this opponent and my read is he is tight, but not particularly aggressive. He has only shown down three hands: TT for second pair which he checked when overcard hit on turn, KJs for top pair (checked to river), and QT for straight (called a bet on rivered straight).
Preflop, UTG and UTG1 both limp, I am dealt KdQh and raise to $15 three off the button. My raise is called by Villian and both limpers.

Flop: 7c Th 3s (Pot: $59 accounting for rake), which is checked through.
The turn brings the Kh. Action checks to me and I bet $20, which is called by all three players.
The river is the 6c and it checks to me again. I bet $131 all-in into the $139 pot. Villian tanks for about two minutes, asking me if I have slowplayed a set, then finally calls for his last $119. The other players fold and he shows AhKc.

I have analyzed this hand on my own and identified some errors in my play here and would like advice on these topics. Particularly, there are three main things.

1. Should KQo go for value on this river against three opponents?
2. What should the appropriate bet size be on all streets here? I have noticed through session reviews that I consistently mess up bet sizing, particularly in multiway pots.
3. Playing against an unknown opponent perceived to be tight, could you expect this opponent to ever call this bet with a worse hand like KJ, or did I accidently turn this hand into a bluff against this opponent?

In addition, please comment on any other issues you may see with the way this hand played out. Perhaps you will see something about the hand I missed. Please identify anything you believe to be a mistake in the way the hand is played with discussion so I can learn from it and not make those mistakes again in the future.

Thanks and let me know if you need more information. I am relatively new to the site and this is my first time posting a hand for review.
 
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xiPLEADthe5th

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I wouldn't have gone all in against the player you described, since he is a tight passive player a half pot bet would've been enough to get him to fold if he had air and if he raised you would've known you're beat but since he is so passive he might've just called you and you wouldn't have lost as much as you did
 
IPlay

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Just bet/fold 40% pot. These villains will never bluff raise rivers and 40% pot gives them good reason to call with Tx

Shoving is meh and you are going to get all folds almost always after villains have shown this much weakness.
 
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pyrotheassassin

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After posting last night I considered both of these ideas further. Thank you both for quality input. It has really opened my eyes to some new concepts, particularly the idea of folding out everything weaker with that shove.
 
NineLions

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20 hands and showing down 3, meaning he probably saw more flops, doesn't seem tight, imo, not for full ring. Mind you, this is live, and tight is a relative term. Non-aggressive, yes.

Betting 1/3 pot on the turn isn't going to fold a lot of hands at this table, especially your villain if he chased a straight to the river, but betting more isn't going to fold a lot either, so that's kind of meh for me. What were you hoping for by potting the river? You're chasing out 88/99 or a most weaker Ks, at best you almost folded his AK. If he's not aggressive I'd bet 1/3 pot to get weaker Ks to call since there doesn't seem to be a risk of being raised, or just check and call a small bet.
 
Trabendo_daze

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I'm with IPlay. Smaller bet to get value from weaker parts of his range. We can rep some missed draws which is good. I think Tx or weaker Kings can payoff something like 40-60% pot. Shoving is not like OMG terrible but I think a smaller bet is strictly better
 
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Simplex

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1. 4 way pot. Think Im checking it down here. Generally won't get called by worse. The shove basically turned your hand into a bluff. Better hands arent folding, worse hands aren't calling and at best you're hoping to fold out AK, which he called.

2. Approriate bet sizing? Multi-way pot? Don't worry maximizing for value in this spot. You have top pair with a Q kicker in a pot with three other guys. Pot control and just try to get to showdown. Should be more concerned about not going broke than maximizing profit in this spot.

3. KJ, a shove, should never call in this spot, which ironicallly is about the only hand you might expect to get value from.
 
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pyrotheassassin

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20 hands and showing down 3, meaning he probably saw more flops, doesn't seem tight, imo, not for full ring. Mind you, this is live, and tight is a relative term. Non-aggressive, yes.

Betting 1/3 pot on the turn isn't going to fold a lot of hands at this table, especially your villain if he chased a straight to the river, but betting more isn't going to fold a lot either, so that's kind of meh for me. What were you hoping for by potting the river? You're chasing out 88/99 or a most weaker Ks, at best you almost folded his AK. If he's not aggressive I'd bet 1/3 pot to get weaker Ks to call since there doesn't seem to be a risk of being raised, or just check and call a small bet.

By potting the river, I hoped he would have a hand like KJ since he seemed to like broadway calls and was more willing to call with hands like these than bet. I was trying (unsuccessfully) to maximize value, since I assumed he wouldn't play AK so passively preflop. After the river shove and he tanked, I noticed that KT was a possible hand in his range, giving him two pair, but I also assumed he would raise two pair on the turn. I made a lot of unsupported assumptions in this hand.
 
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pyrotheassassin

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20 hands and showing down 3, meaning he probably saw more flops, doesn't seem tight, imo, not for full ring. Mind you, this is live, and tight is a relative term. Non-aggressive, yes.

Betting 1/3 pot on the turn isn't going to fold a lot of hands at this table, especially your villain if he chased a straight to the river, but betting more isn't going to fold a lot either, so that's kind of meh for me. What were you hoping for by potting the river? You're chasing out 88/99 or a most weaker Ks, at best you almost folded his AK. If he's not aggressive I'd bet 1/3 pot to get weaker Ks to call since there doesn't seem to be a risk of being raised, or just check and call a small bet.

The Villian folded most hands before, probably only saw 6 or 7 flops, but because the game was so passive, most boards would get checked to the river before someone bet, but bets were mostly getting called prior to river.
 
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CactusCat

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I agree that this should be just a decent value bet. Sometimes players are such scum nitrocks that they will never reraise AK preflop, so it is very much in their range. Just note it and only setmine him when he 3bets you.
 
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