$200 NLHE Full Ring: KK facing c/r on a wet board

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LeGenie

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Hi guys played an interesting hand the other day at a 1/2 NL table against an aggressive villain and would like some feedback on the way I approached this hand.

Villain and I are both sitting on 100 BB.

MP1, MP2, and Villain in the CO all limp. I raise to $15. MP1 and MP2 fold and Villain calls.

Flop comes: J:heart: 4:diamond: 8:diamond: $37 in pot

Villain checks. Hero bets $20. Villain raises to $50. Given that villain limped pre-flop his range consists of Jx suited, T9, Ax suited, 44, and 88. After given it some thought I ended up just calling because if I 4 bet I am only getting called by hands that beat me and folding out hands that I beat.

The turn brought another J:spade: Villain checks. In this spot would you shove the turn or check and let villain see a free river and then bet the river on a blank card?

Thanks for the feedback in advance!
 
BluffMeAllIn

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Is this live or online? I assume live.

Knowing your hand might help. Given what range you are putting him on, I'd check back the turn and evaluate his play on the river, as he could very well be checking again on the turn to once again 3-bet you and build the pot as given your flat of his 3bet you obviously have some kind of a hand (even if just the nut flush draw, in which case if you check back the turn it plain as day puts you on that type of a hand).

Just some thoughts basically from outside looking in.
 
suby_rafael

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Bet Bet Bet

I would go all in on the turn. Checking the turn can be a mistake because if he is on a draw you are giving him another chance to make it and you don't want to be doing that. Since you mentioned he was an aggro player i am pretty sure your Kings are good, he could be raising any draw most draws on the turn like an open ended straight draw, flush draw or it could be a monster combo draw, or very rarely something like a gutshot. So if he had a set you know what doesn't matter you can still beat him on the river. so u already know my advice my advice "all inn" my friend.:dancing:
 
BluffMeAllIn

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Is this live or online? I assume live.

Knowing your hand might help. Given what range you are putting him on, I'd check back the turn and evaluate his play on the river, as he could very well be checking again on the turn to once again 3-bet you and build the pot as given your flat of his 3bet you obviously have some kind of a hand (even if just the nut flush draw, in which case if you check back the turn it plain as day puts you on that type of a hand).

Just some thoughts basically from outside looking in.

My bad on not knowing your hand, obviously I didn't read the title very well. Still same line I think given the situation i probably bet the turn, might have to fold a reshove given your thoughts on his possible hands (would he shove a draw there once you have raised the flop, called his 3 bet and then raised the turn?).

Would certainly not shove per previous poster, you folding out worse and only getting called by better. Would certainly opt for the turn raise of like 65% the pot, if he flats reevalute based on his river action. If he checks, i check back as again only getting called by better, especially if the diamond or straight draws hit.
 
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Arjonius

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if I 4 bet I am only getting called by hands that beat me and folding out hands that I beat.
But is that the full picture? Keeping in hands you beat only matters when they'll put more money in on later streets. In this case, how often will the hands he'd fold improve enough on the turn to put more money into the pot but still be behind?
 
Mr Sandbag

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It's important to remember that on the turn the pot is $137 and the stack sizes are almost exactly as big as the pot. If you bet say half the pot and get called, you'll be left with such a small stack size on the river that you probably won't be able to fold anyway. I don't like shoving all that much, but I'd prefer it over betting any other amount.

I think checking turn and calling non-diamond rivers is best. His line seems like a draw trying to get a free river. If he misses, you can expect him to bet his entire range anyway because your turn check looks weak.

On the turn...check>shove>bet other amounts.
 
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LeGenie

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It's important to remember that on the turn the pot is $137 and the stack sizes are almost exactly as big as the pot. If you bet say half the pot and get called, you'll be left with such a small stack size on the river that you probably won't be able to fold anyway. I don't like shoving all that much, but I'd prefer it over betting any other amount.

I think checking turn and calling non-diamond rivers is best. His line seems like a draw trying to get a free river. If he misses, you can expect him to bet his entire range anyway because your turn check looks weak.

On the turn...check>shove>bet other amounts.

What do you think about the flop c/r? Would you opt to 3 bet shove or flat and evaluate turn and river? I opted to flat because I felt like shoving will only get better hands to call and worse hands to fold and given the stack and pot sizes villain can still get away from a shove on the flop with his drawing hands so shoving would only induce better hands to call.
 
Mr Sandbag

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I wouldn't shove. His c/r seems draw-heavy to me because of the preflop action and especially after he checks the turn, but it's hard to say without knowing much about villain. You say he's aggressive, but that's not much info. Is he aggressive with draws? Is he aggressive with made hands? Is he aggressive when he believes his opponent missed? Does he have a history of check/raising with draws or air? Does his limp/call range preflop include 88/44, or would he raise preflop with pairs in late position?

I'd say his range is something like 88/44/J10s/10-9o/10-9s/J8s/Axdd. Depending on his preflop tendencies, you may be able to remove J10s, 88, or 44 from his range.
 
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Hi guys played an interesting hand the other day at a 1/2 NL table against an aggressive villain and would like some feedback on the way I approached this hand.

Villain and I are both sitting on 100 BB.

MP1, MP2, and Villain in the CO all limp. I raise to $15. MP1 and MP2 fold and Villain calls.

Flop comes: J<font color='red'>♥</font> 4<font color='red'>♦</font> 8<font color='red'>♦</font> $37 in pot

Villain checks. Hero bets $20. Villain raises to $50. Given that villain limped pre-flop his range consists of Jx suited, T9, Ax suited, 44, and 88. After given it some thought I ended up just calling because if I 4 bet I am only getting called by hands that beat me and folding out hands that I beat.

The turn brought another J<font color='black'>♠</font> Villain checks. In this spot would you shove the turn or check and let villain see a free river and then bet the river on a blank card?

Thanks for the feedback in advance!

If villain has a J then hes putting us on a draw , if hes got a draw then hes putting us on J or overs.

Personally im shipping it on the flop.

If you decide to peel on the flop then,
The arrival of another J and villain checking this tells me that he is on a draw . he is very likely to bet turn to protect his hand as he belives we are on a draw. So in this case I belive I have the best hand and bet/ call shove.
 
el_magiciann

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This is really interesting situation, first of all i think from the way he played his hand he is on a flush draw, or he has sth like KJs AJs , but it is most likely that he just had this draw. I also think he didn't have 44 for sure(i personally won't call 7,5bb raise with this one), maybe 88 but i don't think he would limp with pair 8's. Maybe if you were more aggresive on the flop you could save tough decisions, but that's a lot of money and your play may be right if he hit the other J on turn, at all this turn makes you vulnerable, and cheching the turn is the right decision. River play is tough decision too, i would flat call if he raised and check back if he checked. That's what i think.
 
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hffjd2000

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Check for me here. We dont know where we stand. He might be checking his J or his draw. We dont know. We spend almost half our stack and its cash game. If he'll check raise us on turn, were toast-pot committed.
 
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But is that the full picture? Keeping in hands you beat only matters when they'll put more money in on later streets. In this case, how often will the hands he'd fold improve enough on the turn to put more money into the pot but still be behind?

This is the answer. ^^

We want people to make mistakes, so if we 4bet then we give him the chance make a mistake. With KK we are not likely to improve - so we dont really want people to improve, because if they improve enough to make big calls then we may be beaten

Lets put money into the pot when we are ahead, no reason to get tricky.

Additionally, there are a lot of posts in this thread that make assumptions but have no reasoning included. I would much prefer to see logically based thoughts and solid poker theory than hunches or conjecture. Guesses without reason are not helpful.
 
Karozi615

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Why would you move in on the turn? Then you ACTUALLY get worse to fold/better to call. The raise on the flop indicates a draw - probably diamonds or 910. The J isn't a good card for you. You should have 4bet small on the flop.

As played check back the turn to control pot size and check/call all reasonable river bets (unless a diamond, Q or 7 drops.) you can also stack off on river if K or J comes
 
c9h13no3

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I just shove the flop, cuz playing OOP sucks on later streets, draws call, his range is wide & fairly wimpy, villain sucks.

Also, it's a flop 3-bet.

Calling the flop bet and donk-shoving the turn seems like the worst line on the planet. Draws fold, Jx fist-pumps.
 
YNWA

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did you have the Kd ? it may change the way i play it as i'm not scared of draws anymore. But i think i like to just shove the flop , you don't want any scare cards for him
 
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