$200 NLHE Full Ring: Interesting hand for me...

shootwillus

shootwillus

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 24, 2009
Total posts
98
Chips
0
$200 NL HE Full Ring: Interesting hand for me...

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com

MP1 ($38)
MP2 ($45)
CO ($92.55)
Button ($199)
SB ($38)
Hero (BB) ($216.85)
UTG ($49.10)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Ks, Ad
3 folds, CO bets $4, 2 folds, Hero calls $2

Flop: ($9) 3s, Qs, 5h (2 players)
Hero bets $8, CO raises to $16, Hero calls $8

Turn: ($41) Kd (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $12, Hero calls $12

River: ($65) 7c (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $20, Hero raises to $40, CO raises to $60.55 (All-In),

Hero???


Ok, the important part...

I do not have a great read...i do not use any HUD. My feeling here is this fellow is a little loose. I didnt punish the limp because I was out of position. My personal feeling about the limp was "small pocket pair" or "Ace-rag".

I called the re-raise on the turn instead of three-betting because I felt this way: If he had a set, he wouldnt re-raise me here, he'd smooth call to milk me for max value. At this point I am thinking queen with a weak kicker. The turn comes and pairs my king with top kicker and really, at this point....i am stallwart/immovable. So, my opinion here is that either he has a set which he hasnt played well or I have him crushed.....


I checked the river because i really wasnt certain and maybe wanted a cheap showdown....however, his river bet somehow screamed "I want to buy this pot"....do you think this analysis is correct? I Three bet the river thinking, well, if it was a bluff he may fold....but, he probably wouldnt I suppose dude to his chip size...

Anyway, I dont think I have a choice but to call here...and, I like the way I played this overall to this point, I feel good about this hand, and...i'd just like to know if anyone has any major problems with the way I played this...

I am really trying to nit pick the little bits and pieces of my game.
 
Z

Zybomb

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Total posts
372
Chips
0
i'd just like to know if anyone has any major problems with the way I played this...

I would love to comment on this hand but it is so out there I don't even know where to begin. Reraise pre, what on earth is going on on the flop, turn ok, river wtf?

I'd never take any line close to what you did so it's hard to comment on the river decision since I arrive there in this fashion exactly never.

If I somehow played the hand as you did Id just c/c the river. If I did min cr I guess I have to call the last 20 into a 165 but i dunno what we beat.


How the hand shouldve been played

Preflop: Reraise a min raise with AKo OOP all day long. 3 bet any raise with AK in this spot.

Flop: Assuming we 3 bet and opponent called, Id C Bet the flop. Assuming we for some reason flatted, we certainly don't want to donk bet with absolutely nothing. Assuming we for some reason do once villain raises we have no pair and no draw, fold

Turn: Assuming we somehow arrived at the turn in this fashion the turn is probably a good card for us if villain does not have a set AA or KQ. Villain had the initiative on the flop after raising, so check to him and see what he does. He betrs, so we'll call

River: Assuming as played, We may or may not have the best hand, so I guess we can blocker bet or check the river depending on opponents tendencies. If we check and he bets $20 its cheap and we're happy to showdown for that amount, call.
 
shootwillus

shootwillus

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 24, 2009
Total posts
98
Chips
0
Interesting perspective...and, i think we have different styles. I am not going to 3bet here out of position...because, honestly, I suppose I fear a 4bet/shove. I'd kind of like to see some cards here as I consider AKo a hand that needs a flop/turn/river...its not a made hand.


I wouldnt call my turn bet "donk"...it is basically pot sized. For me, i suppose the turn was a gamble.

If you asked me what this guy had at the turn on his re-raise, I'd have said its either 1.) Q with weak kicker 2.) a set 3.) air

So, to, me...right here....i suppose this is my thinking.

If he has a set, he isnt going anywhere and i have lost.

If he has air I have already won.

If he has a weak Q....I can maybe bluff him out of this hand or if i hit my A/K beat him anyway.

So, for me...1/3 of the time i lose....1/3 of the time i win....and 1/3 of the time I may win depending on my play....so, I call his re-raise on the turn.
 
Z

Zybomb

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Total posts
372
Chips
0
Interesting perspective...and, i think we have different styles. I am not going to 3bet here out of position...because, honestly, I suppose I fear a 4bet/shove. I'd kind of like to see some cards here as I consider AKo a hand that needs a flop/turn/river...its not a made hand.

this makes no sense... you dont wanna 3 bet pre bc u want to improve and dont want to be shoved on and would like to see some cards, yet you see a flop which misses you completely (no pair no draw) and yet you are willing to pot size bet into the raiser and call a raise?????

I wouldnt call my turn bet "donk"...it is basically pot sized. For me, i suppose the turn was a gamble.

I think your terms are messed up, You mean the flop not the turn. And its a donk bet, which refers to the fact that you bet into the pre flop raiser (known as a donk bet, not necessarily always a bad play just the name of it)

If you asked me what this guy had at the turn on his re-raise, I'd have said its either 1.) Q with weak kicker 2.) a set 3.) air

Why cant villain have AA/AQ/KQ here after raising preflop. You only called preflop so u have no other information about his hand other than he minraised it preflop and was willing to raise after he saw the flop

So, to, me...right here....i suppose this is my thinking.

If he has a set, he isnt going anywhere and i have lost.

True

If he has air I have already won.

Not even close to true. He raised you! If you don't improve on the turn will you call another bet? If not then his air wins. If so thats very very bad

If he has a weak Q....I can maybe bluff him out of this hand or if i hit my A/K beat him anyway.

He has the initiative after raising the flop and he is in position, how can you bluff him? Whats your plan

So, for me...1/3 of the time i lose....1/3 of the time i win....and 1/3 of the time I may win depending on my play....so, I call his re-raise on the turn.

Again you mean flop not turn. And this 1/3 1/3 1/3 is :confused::confused::confused:. you cant assume he has a set and air and a weak queen each 33.3% of the time. You're OOP and have been raised. Calling to bluff is suicide

comments in bold
 
slycbnew

slycbnew

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 8, 2008
Total posts
2,876
Chips
0
Zybomb's analysis is correct imo. Check out the required reading list in the ring game HA stickied threads, and c9's post on 3betting in Golden Archives.
 
S93

S93

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Total posts
6,154
Chips
0
I dont want to come of as douch but u basicly played every street bad.

Raise prf. If u think he has small PP/Ax 3bet and get value from his range.

Flop. What is your thinking when u donk bet the flop? if your Ax/PP range is correct he isnt folding his PPs since this is a great flop for almost all of them and if he is a decent player Ax is probably raising since donkbetting is so weak in this spot putting us in a bad spot with a-high OOP.
What do u expect to beat on the flop that raises u?

Dont really mind the turn.


River. You think he is bluffing so u min c/r him? I think your mostly just folding out worse and geting shoved on by better in this spot.
I just call the original river bet.
As played where geting a sick price to call so i do call but i dont expect to be good all that often,
 
shootwillus

shootwillus

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 24, 2009
Total posts
98
Chips
0
First of all...you are correct about my writing "turn". I did intend to say "flop". I think unfortunately this makes my plays look even worse...mishandling the jargon has a tendency to amplify the appearance of ignorance I seem to be exuding.

The reason I never thought he had AA/AK/AQ is the size of his raise. My read on this particular player was loose and somewhat aggro. I just felt like if he had a very premium starting hand he would not have led out with a 2x BB raise...he'd have pushed it further.

What I am about to say isnt going to come out right...but, here is the thing: I really hate getting pushed all in with AK pre flop. I just have a tendency to lose to pocket anythings in this situation. I suppose I like to see the flop...and even if it doesnt hit me, I bet out anyway (out of position) because it may not hit him either and I want to see his reaction. I felt like his re-raise was not a show of strength but a bluff. I called because...well, i thought he was bluffing. When I hit my king on the turn, I very much felt I had the best hand and I'd like him to keep bluffing.

Now...the thing is I know my line is not "standard". And, I also know that we shouldnt be results oriented. However...I'm thinking that one just cant take standard lines all the time.

Ok...to reveal the conclusion of the hand...the villain had A6o...so total air.

Now, you have to think about how he played this hand.

I through out a pot sized flop bet which he re-raised and I called.
I checked the turn and smooth called his bet.
I check- raise the river.

Now, I have shown strength here...If I were the villain, I'd believe I have a real hand.

Where this gets very odd for me is...the villain should believe I have a decent hand. But...maybe I should believe he has something as he was the original raiser and he has continued to put money into the pot...?


At what point do you break from your standard line and just play your hunch/gut??
 
S93

S93

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Total posts
6,154
Chips
0
1. You can 3bet and then fold to a 4bet. You do that when your ahead of villain 3bet calling range but behind his 4beting range so geting 4bet and folding isnt horrible.
The problem with AK is it ahead of most of villains range but it misses the flop 65% of times so beeing OOP with out the initive sucks.

2. Betting for information in NL and PL games is almost allways bad since the information u get it worth less then the amount u spend gaining that info


"Now, I have shown strength here...If I were the villain, I'd believe I have a real hand. "

Yeah but what worse hand do u get action from?
If your plan was to turn TPTK into a bluff u probably succeded.
 
Effexor

Effexor

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
May 13, 2006
Total posts
1,773
Chips
0
My read on this particular player was loose and somewhat aggro.

I really hate getting pushed all in with AK pre flop.


At what point do you break from your standard line and just play your hunch/gut??

(1) If he is as you thought, LAG, this is exactly why you 3 bet PF. AK is way way way ahead of his range and you want to bet for value.

(2) If you had 3 bet and he 4 bet you, then it's an easy shove, specially against a LAG who uses blind aggression to win pots. AK is only a slight underdog to a very few hands, crushes his range and with the amount in the pot you can do the math and determine the call would be a good one had he 4 bet.

(3) I "mix up my play" randomly, but it's always when I have some sort of advantage, this usually means I have position.
 
slycbnew

slycbnew

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 8, 2008
Total posts
2,876
Chips
0
Shoot, keep in mind none of us are trying to be jerks here. If you read some of the materials i cited you'll see why we think the hand is played badly.

fwiw, villain is a fish, we all see that without HUD stats. He minraised and he's playing a 46bb stack - and there is your assessment of his prior hands. He ran a pretty huge bluff here, probably partly because you didn't 3bet preflop, and partly because you donk bet the flop (my feel for most donk bets, readless, is that they're either really strong (sets on drawy boards)or middling weak) - or maybe because he's a fish :D .

This is another reason imo to 3bet pf - you're way ahead of his range pf (he's playing a half stack, he's in CO, and he minraised), but he's likely to 4bet w a weak range (playing allin pf w AK against a halfstack is a nobrainer for me, cuz I never respect their shove ranges).

I don't think, though, that you're ahead of his range (not his actual hand, his range of hands) on the flop (his turn bet sizing is silly though, so I might re-evaluate on the turn).
 
shootwillus

shootwillus

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 24, 2009
Total posts
98
Chips
0
No no...I do not think anyone here is trying to be a jerk. To the contrary, I am happy to have your input and for anyone to take some time to analyze a situation that interests me.

This is all academic, not personal...and like i said, I appreciate the commentary. I am not posting hands in order to be complimented...but to be corrected.

That being said, I am generally going to try to defend my reasoning in a hand because I want to make the best argument I can for the way I acted. Ill let other people make their arguments for taking a different line and then I can dccide what sounds better to me in the end.




If I didnt have doubts about how I played the hand, I wouldnt have posted it here.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
Awards
1
Chips
1
I don't actually mind the preflop flat so much. It's not my default play, it's not my preferred play, but I'm OK with it as a once-in-awhile kinda thing.

You need a very specific read in order to lead this flop, and without it I don't like leading. I like check/raising or check/calling, but bet/calling is probably the worst line you could take. See, here's a fairly serious flaw in your reasoning: You think his raise means that he's bluffing (how do you suppose he WOULD play a real hand on a twotone flop?) but you need to understand that a lot of the hands he would "bluff" with here have you beat. You can't call as a bluffcatcher because your hand isn't that great of a bluffcatcher. You can check/call as a bluffcatcher because he's going to have a very wide range for c-betting, but his range for raising the flop isn't going to be at all as wide.

So if you read him as bluffing, 3-bet the flop. I don't see why you think he's bluffing, but if you want to play according to your read, then re-raising is the play. You don't have a hand and you're out of position. End the hand now, if you think he's weak.

On the turn, I don't mind your play. If I ended up on the turn the same way you did, check/calling against an unknown is probably best. I'd lead out against many of my regular opponents (with varying plans for whether or not to bet/fold or bet/shove depending).

I can't wrap my head around the river. Did you check his stack size before minraising? If you didn't - and how could you have? - then that's something you need to start thinking a LOT about.
 
shootwillus

shootwillus

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 24, 2009
Total posts
98
Chips
0
Hmm...on the river, I wanted him all in. I really thought I had the best hand. If I pushed him all in on the river...I suppose he may have possibly folded, maybe not as he was basically pot committed..however, i thought the weak river re-raise looked like i had nothing or at very least would be a real head scratcher and most likely he'd commit those last chips without thinking.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
Awards
1
Chips
1
Start this hand over again, and this time start giving him ranges of hands for every street and every action.

1. What range does he have for opening in the CO?
2. What part of that range minraises the flop?
3. What part range #2 bets small on the turn?
4. What part of range #3 bets the river?
5. What part of range #4 calls a checkraise? And,
6. What part of range #4 folds to a checkraise? And,
7. What part of range #4 shoves when you mincheckraise?

You can't say stuff like "I think he's bluffing" or that you hope he's calling the river raise without having at least some idea of what kinds of hands he could have.

What you'll find, if you answer questions 1-4, is that his river range is (or should be) very small. There can't be a lot of hands in it. Then, as an exercise, try figuring out exactly how much money you lose on average by raising the river. And I guarantee you that you'll lose money on average.

Your hand on the river is little more but a glorified bluff catcher. Some really small percentage of the time, you'll find him spazzing out with a complete bluff but versus your average 200NL opponent this is certainly not the case. If he's horrible and shoves over your river mincheckraise with, say, AQ then what you have here is an exceptionally bad opponent and not one that you should really bother trying to analyze as an "unknown." As a default, your entire line for this hand works really, really poorly.
 
StormRaven

StormRaven

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 16, 2009
Total posts
2,510
Chips
0
I don't actually mind the preflop flat so much. It's not my default play, it's not my preferred play, but I'm OK with it as a once-in-awhile kinda thing.

You need a very specific read in order to lead this flop, and without it I don't like leading. I like check/raising or check/calling, but bet/calling is probably the worst line you could take. See, here's a fairly serious flaw in your reasoning: You think his raise means that he's bluffing (how do you suppose he WOULD play a real hand on a twotone flop?) but you need to understand that a lot of the hands he would "bluff" with here have you beat. You can't call as a bluffcatcher because your hand isn't that great of a bluffcatcher. You can check/call as a bluffcatcher because he's going to have a very wide range for c-betting, but his range for raising the flop isn't going to be at all as wide.

So if you read him as bluffing, 3-bet the flop. I don't see why you think he's bluffing, but if you want to play according to your read, then re-raising is the play. You don't have a hand and you're out of position. End the hand now, if you think he's weak.

On the turn, I don't mind your play. If I ended up on the turn the same way you did, check/calling against an unknown is probably best. I'd lead out against many of my regular opponents (with varying plans for whether or not to bet/fold or bet/shove depending).

I can't wrap my head around the river. Did you check his stack size before minraising? If you didn't - and how could you have? - then that's something you need to start thinking a LOT about.
^^^This is what I am thinking as well. Most of the time I am re-popping AK pf - especially when I have an isolated lag. Once in awhile I smooth call to change up my play.

Because you didn't reraise him pf I don't like you leading out on the flop either. Check calling can limit your losses, check raising might take down the pot right here or give you the info you need to continue. If he reraises you after you've check raised then I'm probably dumping the hand.
Turn is good but only because villain reraised the flop. If you had check raised the flop then I would lead out here. Of course if you had and he re-popped I wouldn't still be in this hand.
I don't like your river bet either. He raised pf, yes it was from the btn and yes he is loose but he re-popped your bet on the flop and bet the turn. At this point I'm changing my initial range thinking to him having either a set of 7's or KQ. I would have only called here, not reraised, afterall, all you have is a pair and that's it. By the river if all you have is a pair then it probably isn't any good. If he was a hyper aggressive player then that might be different but right now all you stated was he was a little loose.

Anyways, just my thoughts.
 
P

postflopper

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 16, 2009
Total posts
449
Chips
0
I checked the river because i really wasnt certain and maybe wanted a cheap showdown....however, his river bet somehow screamed "I want to buy this pot"....do you think this analysis is correct? I Three bet the river thinking, well, if it was a bluff he may fold....but, he probably wouldnt I suppose dude to his chip size...

i dont know if i got this right. u thought he was bluffing, and u raised him with top pair top kicker? what for?
 
shootwillus

shootwillus

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 24, 2009
Total posts
98
Chips
0
I raised because I thought he was bluffing...he only has two options, fold or all in. If i think i have the best hand, i want him all in. The river raise just really convinced me of a bluff.

I think another factor here, thinking back on the hand...something that made me think bluff was the speed and intensity of the betting. The villain bet really quickly, sort of "pushing" at me with his bets. A lot of times I feel, at these stakes, when someone bets super fast or they take a super long time it has more likelihood of being a bluff. Though, the super long time thing is sometimes a trap, and you have to watch the player and take notes.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
Awards
1
Chips
1
Even if you think that he has 42o 99% of the time when he bets the river, that STILL doesn't necessarily make a raise the right play. If you understand this, then I think you've taken a big step forward. Do you see why raising even if your opponent is bluffing 999 times out of 1,000 can be wrong?
 
shootwillus

shootwillus

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 24, 2009
Total posts
98
Chips
0
My question then is this....how can raising be a bad move if you think your opponent has no hand? The raise seems like an invitation for an opponent you believe to be bluffing to push all in and continue his bluff.

Hmmmm....ok, as i am writing this, a thought occurred to me and I can see your point in that:

If you raise when you think there is a bluff....most likely the bluff folds (you get no extra money most of the time)

If you call instead of raising...and it was a bluff, you win....if he actually has the better hand, you lose much less than re-raising.

I suppose I can see in this situation how re-raising might loose one money as bluffs fold while nut hands push back.


So, first of all thank you for challenging me to think of that...

But, in a specific scenario where you 1.) know its a bluff and 2.) know your bluffing villain will go all in with air....i can see the re-raise being a good decision.

But, yes, i can see your point...and, yes, 99% of the time you are correct.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
Awards
1
Chips
1
That's a major poker revelation that you just had. Congratulations. :)

Sometimes, raising in the hopes of your opponent shoving as a bluff (or semibluff) is correct. In this particular case, where your opponent can't reasonably expect that his bluff will ever work (considering how big the pot is in comparison to how small his shove will be), you won't make it work though. And that's even assuming that he'll bluff often enough for you to show a profit anyway, which I don't think he will. There are a LOT of hands in his range that beat yours, and he'd have to be a maniac for this particular board and action to be a suitable situation to try it.
 
Starting Hands - Poker Hand Nicknames Rankings - Poker Hands
Top