$200 NLHE Full Ring: Did I play this wrong?

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fordman427

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I recently turned 21 so I've been working on the transition from online to live poker at the casino. Over the weekend I played in a 9 handed table in a 1/2 game. 8 of the 9 players had between $100-$200 in chips ($200 was max buy-in and $100 minimum) but 1 guy had about $450 in chips. I'm UTG and pick up 7d7h and raise it up to $7 and it folds around to the button and my raise was called by the button and both blinds. The BB was the guy with the big stack and he had been playing very loose and trying to play bully of the table and had been calling off very loose. The flop comes 7s 3h 10d. I check with the big stack behind and it's checked over to him where he bets $15. I call and both other players fold. The turn comes the 6c. Once again I check not really worried about him having a straight because he had been playing pretty much anything. He checks behind, which got me thinking. Turn comes 2s and I begin to go through the ranges. I had seen him make similar moves earlier in which he had JJ and QQ so I begin to put him on this type hand and I check once again trying to get him to value bet. Instead he bets $275 putting me all in. He bets $275 into a pot of $58 had me somewhat puzzled. Each time during the session he had made large bets it was with over pairs to the board. So I go through ranges and settle on him with having something like QQ or a bluff so I call. He flips over 98 for the straight. Did I make any key errors in the hand, just get out played, or run into variance? Thanks for all feed back!
 
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AlexTheOwl

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You want to have as many opponents as possible with 77, to increase the chance that someone will pay you off if you hit a set. Or no callers, to steal the blinds. A $7 raise UTG does neither.
I'd limp. If you expect a massive re-raise from the BB then folding is also an option. Many players lose money overall by playing small pairs from early position.

I would expect the BB to usually 3-bet with a big pair, especially given your description of him.

Flop and turn sound fine given your description of the BB. I'd bet both streets against a less aggressive player.

You were right to hear alarm bells sound when he checked the turn and bombed the river.
You say he has made large bets with overpairs, but did he wait until the river, then push all in?
I think you are making a mistake putting him on overcards here. He has straights and sets, maybe two pair, and bluffs. Still, I think you are ahead of enough of those hands to call.

P.S. The "enter" key on your keyboard is your friend!
 
TheBigFinn

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I would have done several things different. I would never open 77 UTG. On the button, sure, UTG you have 8 players to act with at least one of them likely to have a better starting hand. When you play low pairs there only value is if you hit a 3rd 7 on the flop. Either limp or fold from UTG.

I am a little confused about position. You said you were UTG and the big stack was BB. On the flop BB (big blind) would act before you. I think the big stack was on the button. Assuming this is the case why check? You are ahead of everything except TT. You want to get paid for your trips and you had the lead. Everyone expects you to bet and you want more money in the pot so bet.

I hear you saying, "but what if they fold?" If they were folding to your flop raise what are you expecting to happen to make them NOT fold to a turn raise AND still be behind? Hitting 2 pair? The turn giving them 3 of a kind? Not much can help. What will call you given that so little beats you?

If the big shack was bullying you before, he might call thinking he can push off on the turn or river. Over pairs, broadways and not much else. Unfortunately if the big stack calls he hits the 4 outer on the turn and there is little you can do now that he's hit.

As played you are right to hear those alarm bells when he checks back. why would he do that when you have described him as a loose bully? He has a good hand and is leading you along; He is drawing; or he has a weak hand his trying to get to show down. When he pushes the river, you have to ask yourself, "Why so much?"

He sure doesn't want to get to a cheap show down, so he either has it, or he doesn't. Your open UTG, check call flop, check turn, check river. What hand is strong enough to open UTG and then check three times. It looks like an un improved high pair. Villain figures you are folding to a value bet, so why not look like a bully and try to hit the home run.

In my experience in $1/$2 games, when they are pushing AI on the river I assume they have it, especially the first time and let it go.
 
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fordman427

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Thanks for the tips guys, this hand give me some good insight for when I got back, I've read a couple books, but it has been a tough transition going for online to live
 
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Sidetracked

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Against live donks/fish, don't try to be tricky when you have a strong hand. Bet pot on the flop.

Also, 3.5x raise is small when playing live.
 
JayLoyal

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Against live donks/fish, don't try to be tricky when you have a strong hand. Bet pot on the flop.

Also, 3.5x raise is small when playing live.
yep, a $7 raise preflop is practically limping in in live 1/2.
 
Bozovicdj

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Look to either limp small pocket pairs UTG or fold! I am keen on raising only if I am familiar with the players, and if I want to put pressure of a big stack.
As for the way you played, considering your description, you should have folded on the river. If he really is loose then he would keep betting on the turn, as well as on the river, this way, it just feels as a stone cold trap. He might be having lower sets, but I dont see those checking the turn and jaming river like that.
 
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braveslice

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I just read at least 20 minutes about limping, it seems that it's valid strategy when raising does not posses fold equity. Would not have believed that, and still hard time really to comprehend it =)

But surely raising will get rid of 75o for example? And with set our flop plan is quite straight forward in multiway pot, then again maybe these draw 75o hunters are the primary source of income if hero hits. Also sacrificing 4bb to a raise and then getting multiple calls would make flop pot massive making playing set very easy post flop.
 
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cheeeer

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Yea it's usual situation. When someone raises every time and plays anything noone cant believe that sometimes he can really catch something.

key is the turn. It comes twice.
The turn comes the 6c.
Turn comes 2s
No. Not really.
Ohhh, raiser who bets every time, who bets before, on the flop suddenly checks?? It definitely means something.
The river is also usual situation. Such players raise much when they have something good. But people call them anyway. That's how he collected his $450. Just stop calling his huge raises and raise much against him yourself, only against him. And I imagine him shocked.
 
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AlexTheOwl

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The flop comes 7s 3h 10d. I check with the big stack behind and it's checked over to him where he bets $15.

Ohhh, raiser who bets every time, who bets before, on the flop suddenly checks?? It definitely means something.

cheeeer, you are correct that the poster typed "turn" where he should have said "river". But the pre-flop raiser is the hero. The player who "bets every time" is the big stack, and the big stack does not check the flop.


I just read at least 20 minutes about limping, it seems that it's valid strategy when raising does not posses fold equity. Would not have believed that, and still hard time really to comprehend it =)

But surely raising will get rid of 75o for example? And with set our flop plan is quite straight forward in multiway pot, then again maybe these draw 75o hunters are the primary source of income if hero hits. Also sacrificing 4bb to a raise and then getting multiple calls would make flop pot massive making playing set very easy post flop.

I limp much more live than I do online. Live, at least in the US and UK (I haven't played in other places), pre-flop raises are less common, especially at $1/$2.

If you don't flop a set or better against multiple opponents, you are probably done with the hand.
odds of flopping a set or better are 8.5:1. And of course sometimes sets or better lose.
You don't need pot odds of 8.5:1 to make set mining profitable, because the implied odds are high. But the closer the pot odds are to the real odds, the better.

In this hand, at the end of the pre-flop action the hero gets three callers, and is out of position. He is not in a good situation for bluffs, and the ratio of the other players's money in the pot to his bet (kind of a retroactive pot odds) is just 3:1. If he had limped, he would have increased his chances of getting a better ratio, and better implied odds.

If his limp was raised, the situation still might have been OK depending on how many players called the raise. If his pot odds didn't look good, he can fold having lost only one BB.

If you can't get many opponents, heads-up with position and initiative is the second best scenario, since there may be profitable bluffing opportunities.
 
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cheeeer

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cheeeer, you are correct that the poster typed "turn" where he should have said "river".
Do you mean it's the only correct what I typed? haha Well, maybe.
But the pre-flop raiser is the hero. The player who "bets every time" is the big stack, and the big stack does not check the flop.
Oh sorry, I meant "raiser who bets every time, who bets before - on the flop (even during this hand): suddenly checks on the turn".
 
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AlexTheOwl

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Do you mean it's the only correct what I typed? haha Well, maybe.

Oh sorry, I meant "raiser who bets every time, who bets before - on the flop (even during this hand): suddenly checks on the turn".

I thought that was what you meant. Since you pointed out the original poster's mistake, I had to be a little bit wicked and point out your mistake. :p

Now it is your job to point out my next mistake. It will probably happen soon. :eek:
 
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cheeeer

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Since you pointed out the original poster's mistake, I had to be a little bit wicked and point out your mistake. :p
haha Ohhh, Thank you. so sweet.
No. I just searched what happend on the turn and saw "Turn comes 2s". And I was: So where is straight?
Just stop calling his huge raises and raise much against him yourself, only against him.
Oh sorry, bad advice. Maybe you will take all his $450 in other hands, but during this hand you would have lost all your stack anyway. So, bad advice. Play as you want.
 
Figaroo2

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You raised Pre and hit your hand...why aren't you betting or raising the flop? You appear to have fancy play syndrome. Not that it matters in this hand, whatever way you play it you should get stacked here on this runout. It is just a cooler at the end of the day.

As was pointed out if he's in the BB he has to act before you not after you so I assume he either leads into you for 15 or he was actually on the button. From your comments that he checked behind on the turn and you checked the river to him I assume he's on the button.

If he was on the button I'd be looking to build the pot immediately and lead out on the flop. If I check here it's because I'm going to check raise. You have the effective nuts on the flop with a lag behind you, just bet your hand. These sorts of guys rely on you signalling the strength of your hand so check raising isn't how I'd play it. Id just cbet as I normally do.
Check calling also gives you no information about his hand. If you bet flop, turn and he still wants to put you all in on the end then you have the information that he might actually have a hand.
It's just a cooler you can't be folding sets to guys like that on that run out.
Fwiw I would have bet flop and turn both about 2/3 pot and probably checked the river to him to let him play the bully and put him all in if he hadn't put me in.
If he was a nit I'd just fire the 3rd barrel.
 
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RunningLikePluto

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$200 NLHE Full Ring: Did I play this wrong?

As others have stated, limp or fold. If you don’t think you’ll have to cold call a 3! Preflop I think it’s fine to limp, call an open, and play a flop. You opened to $7 which is a pretty standard 1/2 live open, and didn’t get punished for it... so, whatever... got away with one. In future I’d reserve my UTG opening range to AQs, AKo/s, QQ+, limping JJ, TT, and 77-
99 are read dependent for me based on the game.

I think the larger problem is the postflop play. You flop gin, and don’t lead. Based on the c/c on consecutive streets, I’d advise you to work on aggression. Slow playing hands that are well disguised monsters on wet boards is a recipe to go broke. Lead for the pot on the turn, if villain raises, 3! FPS.

You say villain plays any two cards but give him no credit for the straight? I’m not saying I could get away from this hand (but my money would’ve gone in on the flop), but AP I would be VERY concerned about the straight. It seems very logical and villain’s sizing is indicative that he may be trying to price his draw/not lose action when he hits turns/rivers. Why did you totally discount the 10 hi straight?

Turns the 6, and you mention you got to thinking after it checks thru. What were you thinking? What specific combos had you assigned to his range? I ask because AP, it’s difficult to really range this guy, but I’m giving him a lot of straights 4,5/8,9 (32 combos, which in my mind is a good reason to either put in a thin value bet on the river or check call up to a PSB)

River bricks, a thin 1/2 PSB saves you a pile of BBs here. Once again you’re checking and it just doesn’t make sense. Why? The turn had just gone x/x and you should either figure he has two overs like A/Broadway or he has a monster. You have to lead dude.

1. Aggression wins lots of pots esp when properly timed. The only aggressive action you took here was in worst possible spot preflop.

2. You’ll be able to much more easily assign a range to villain if you’re more aggressive. Trapping seems cool on TV and it’s really satisfying when it works but good lord, the time for it is not when you flop middle set after opening under the gun. Save it for when you flop boats and better and even then you need to balance your checked monsters with some leads as well.

Just think how differently it plays out if you Pot the flop. Villain calls. You barrel the turn and villain jams. Then based on your assessment of villain you can safely assign one of the 32 straight combos to him and fold or go into a flip with your eyes open.

Making jump from online to live it can be hard to dial up the appropriate aggression. Work on it. It will serve you well.



Edit: I guess the flop wasn’t that wet but it’s got multiple straight draws that can get home over two streets and I’m a PLO player so every board is wet to me.
 
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wildjoker68

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I know how you feel, been there done that too. I bet pot, when I have a set, but after the turn came I would be a little slower on my reaction. that's when you clear your mind and try to check your gut feeling and get out of your head. always remember the BB is going to play whatever they get, and with a very large stack why not? when playing a tournament, I try to stick pretty tight and play Phil Hellmuths 10 hands of poker. 9's -A's pairs, AK,AQ,KQ,QJ, but I will play J10 suited 89,78 suited if in position UTG or on the Button. but only early on when blinds are very low, or if I have that gut feeling with a good stack, but I won't call a big pre flop raise with them. unless I'm tilted lol. Peace and happy bank rolling" by the way, playing these hand will get you to payouts more times than not. maybe not always the final table but will run you deep into the tournament, unless the cards just never come.
 
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Stixmagill

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Ranges, but cooler

The turn comes the 6c. Once again I check not really worried about him having a straight because he had been playing pretty much anything. He checks behind, which got me thinking. Turn comes 2s and I begin to go through the ranges. I had seen him make similar moves earlier in which he had JJ and QQ so I begin to put him on this type hand and I check once again trying to get him to value bet.

I try to build ranges on every street and then have the discipline to only narrow them, not expand them on later streets. It is not easy for me to do, especially with multi-way pots. I would doubt that we could include QQ and JJ in villain's preflop range so we cannot add them in after the flop and turn action. As you had assigned him a range of "pretty much anything", the turned 6 completing the open-ender and the check behind should put up a flag. You felt the trap...

But whatever ranges you can assign, go with them, then adjust on future hands if player shows you something different.

It is a tough spot.
 
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amitmanchanda

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If he is loose there was a good chance he has straight draw, I would re raised him with all in and most likely he would have folded.
 
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