$200 NLHE Full Ring: Flopped flush against 6 villains [NLHE 1/1/2 Live]

Y

YellowHeart

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EDIT: 5 villains
This is a hand I played live at a local card table with 1/1/2 stakes ($1 button) with $4 rake.

After a 5bb raise from early position (V1), 3 people (V2,V3,V4) flat from behind.

Hero flats the CO with 7s5s, wanting to see a flop. Button folds. SB folds. BB flats

Flop ($59): 3s4s8s

BB checks. V1 c-bets $15, V2 calls, V3 and V4 fold. Hero raises to $40. BB folds, V1 folds, V2 calls.

Turn ($154): 5o

V2 leads out for $20. I shove for $95 more ($115 total). V2 (has me covered) waits about a minute before turning over As6s and I'm drawing dead (I think he felt bad).

What do you guys think of this hand? There are few better flops for my hand than a flush with a gutter to a straight flush. As for V2, he's an older talkative gentleman with imperfect English that has been trying to get people to straddle and play pots all night. So far I had seen him show down primarily premium hands (TPTK, two pair, etc.) as well as him revealing a missed flush draw to a river bet. Generally, he has been playing a lot of pots and has a lot of chips.

On the other hand, this was a pot that went 6 ways to the flop with little going on other than the 3 card flush. So there is a higher than normal chance for other flushes, which will probably beat my 7-high flush.


At first, I thought I did nothing wrong and just got unlucky to run into a nut flush that blocked my out to a straight flush.

Now I'm not so certain, and I have a couple of questions:

1. Preflop: I'm in the CO facing a large open-raise (was standard for this table though) and several cold calls. I'm getting a great price to see the flop and in my mind my hand was too weak to 3-bet. Did I make the right play to just flat?

2. Flop: Obviously it's a scary board. There were two people in front of me that could have been drawing to a better flush as well as BB behind, so I raise to deny equity with what I think is the best hand. I think this play made sense but with this many people to the flop, I'm not certain.

3. Turn: V2 didn't raise the original flop or my re-raise, so in my mind it is unlikely that he has a completed nut flush. V2 could have a set, made a straight on the turn, or had some nut flush draws and/or flush draws with a pair, that could all conceivably take the line he has. However, I definitely did not give enough credit to him slow playing the nut flush.

I think in hindsight, I turned my great hand into a bluff where I'm only getting called with better. All other made flushes beat mine except 6h2h (one combination that might fold pre-flop), and there are very few combinations of those hands that fold. The 6h for the straight flush is a one-outer against those hands which they could conceivably be holding themselves. A set might call, but I might be able to get it in on the river anyways. I have too much equity against a flush draw to want to get them to fold. Straights are very low probability. A 5 completing a straight on that board would mean that V2 called an EP open, c-bet, and flop re-raise with only a gutshot. Maybe A2 with the As or 76 with the 6s is possible here. Two pair or TPTK, over pairs without a flush draw are probably folding.
Now the question is, does it make more sense in this position to flat or choose a smaller raise size? I'm leaning towards flatting in this position due to stack sizes, but if I had been deeper (say, $200 behind rather than $115), would it have made sense to raise somewhere in the $60 range with the intention of folding to a shove?

4. There was also a $500 jackpot for high hand of the hour that I would beat if I made a straight flush. This might have induced my spewing, but it also doesn't make much sense as I would want to see a river if I wanted to roll for the jackpot. Should I just completely block out these considerations when making poker decisions?

5. Lastly, how would I go about making these types of decisions live? It is somewhat unfeasible to literally count the combination of hands that I beat versus the ones that I lose to. If I were to purchase software like PioSolver or FlopZilla, how could I apply what the software tells me to guide my decisions in these spots at the live tables?
 
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Q

quant1986

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1. I think 75s is a bit weak to call but once in a while I would flat as well if button or blinds are not LAG if effective stack is 200bb+.


2. The flop raise is a bit small and I would like bigger raise size as V1 or V2 will get good odds/implied odds to draw if holding one As only.

3. If I were V2, I would be inclined to call instead of re-raising your flop raise as my equity is very stable and not likely to change unless the board becomes paired.

That float turn bet is quite suspicious, not sure if V2 would lead with 2 pairs, set or just one As.

I would like calling turn bet here as you are holding baby flush and hope to get a cheap showdown.

4. $500 is just too little to make a difference here in my opinion and I would consider this in isolation taking account into bet required and outs to see if this is +EV.

5. Cash game you can spend few minutes thinking V2 actions and ranges before shoving on the turn. And this thinking process would be quicker when you play more and more hands.
 
G

Grearix

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Preflop it's not a mistake to call as well in late position, with so many players paying before. But on the flop you should have been more careful when Villain called your 40 $ raise. I don't see how someone can call your raise with a flush draw so the chances you are behind are bigger than you thought.
 
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Gildog89

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I like calling the turn here too. Why is villain leading the turn with such a small bet? With your line so far, I think he wants you to raise.

I think you can factor the $500 jackpot into your pot odds calculation in general, but with just one out, it's not a huge factor here. And as you point out, you see the river with a call.
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

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Preflop: Fine, whatever. I get it, 75s is super pretty preflop with a bunch of people in the pot. I would kill to change the 7 OR the 5 to a suited ace, but so be it. I've been there and done that a hundred times so I can't harp on it too hard. But fwiw I'm not saying to 3bet - we're not really deep enough to justify that imo - I'm saying we should probably fold instead.

Flop: I'm raising substantially bigger. I realize we don't have tons of chips behind but I think at least $60 on the flop is appropriate here when you look at how big the pot is already and the bet and call in front of you.

Turn + your questions: Fine as played on the flop. I'm not looking for ways to get away once I get into this pot with such a smaller effective stack size and a bloated pot preflop. But this all points back to preflop. We're not really deep enough to justify playing a hand of this type, which I didn't realize when I wrote about the preflop action. (Okay, I guess I harped on it after all.)

As for whether the villain is likely to have made flushes on flop, you say it's unlikely he has the nut flush. I think that is the most likely flush for him to have because it's rather invulnerable (as compared with other flushes, which may fear the naked A of spades).

When it comes to promotions, it's very, VERY rare that they should influence your strategic and tactical decisions at the table (except to take into account whether others are taking them into account and changing their play). This isn't a big enough factor to change how you should play the hand imo.

When it comes to how to make decisions live, you're asking an even bigger question than I think you realize. It comes down to crafting a thought process through off table work and on table experience, and getting those to mesh closer and closer together over time. But making that happen isn't simple, and no one can give you a one size fits all path that will definitely work for you.

Starting with Flopzilla and hand analysis on CardsChat is a great start. But always approach this stuff with some self-sufficiency rather than a total "give me the right answer" mentality. Think about the answers you're getting and constantly test them against your current understanding and objectively ask whether what you're hearing makes sense. Does it clash with what you think you know? If so, why? Often your current understanding will be more basic than what you are hearing, but sometimes different ideas don't clash 100% but can instead be meshed by adjusting both sides somewhat.

I realize that's not exactly what you meant by asking how to improve your in-game decision making but sorry, I had to go on a little rant on that because it's such an over-arching question/theme!
 
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