$200 NLHE Full Ring: Flop NFD turn gutter multiway. Best Line?

Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

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This was a fun one from last night and I ended up in the hand with my best friend. The table was super deep too cuz 2 guys just kept going to the ATM and getting money out for me :)

Players and Stacks:
Hero: SB I've been doing well but just playing super tight and geting paid and I have $1,080
MP: My friend has ~$350 and she's taken some beats. She's better than me or at least as good as me.
HJ: has $1,200 (won a huge pot off me) Playing a ton of pots. loves to make huge bets/jams with draws and he keeps getting there.
BTN: solid, has ~$380. He button straddled this hand for $5



So I'm first to act in SB due to button straddle. I've been at this table 3+ hours and just mostly folding 90% of the time to these button straddles cuz the 2 guys doing it in my blinds are very competent and they will just punish me with position. I've just been playing nutted hands. But THIS hand I look down at :ac4::5c4: and decide to get frisky.


I come in for a raise of $15 (table standard) cuz I can't limp into the straddler.


My friend in MP insta calls in such a way that I'm pretty sure she has a hand that she recognizes as a "must play" but isn't strong enough to 3b for value with or weak enough to 3b bluff with. She generally isn't trying to play pots with me so she isn't splashing around with junk. I put her on a set mining hand or 2 broadways. No big aces for sure (she would 3b me for value with AQ+ and sometimes AJ)


CO calls the $15


BTN: calls the extra $10


4 to a flop pot contains $62


FLOP: :jd4::10c4::2c4:


I check (cuz I don't wanna get raised off my draw and my Cbet will never get through these 4 players anyways).


My friend in MP bets $40. CO calls. BTN folds. I do a mini tank basically considering whether or not I want to raise but I know she has something and she won't be fooled by my trickery and he doesn't like to fold so I decide I've got good enough pot odds and implied odds to peel.


TURN: :3h4: Pot contains $182


I check she bets $75 and he instantly raises her to $180.


Now....I've seen him do this quite often. He raises flop somewhat often but LOVES to raise turn bets. And he's shown up with a draw every time I've seen him showdown. (doesn't mean he has one now.....but I'm thinking he would have raised flop with a set or 2 pair because at the time he was facing her flop bet there were still 4 players in the pot and a flush draw on board.). And I don't think he could have ever turned a set of 3s. So I feel his range is really draw heavy and occasionally he has JT or a set. I'm pretty sure he's not raising 1 pair here.


So....Pot now contans $437 and I have $1,025 back.


Call, Jam or fold?
 
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Jillychemung

Jillychemung

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I'd shove here with your read. Your friend will prob call with the pot odds she is getting but you are prob ahead of the villain and even if you lose to your friend you can scoop a nice profit if the villain calls.
 
I

Iriasj2009

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Let give it a whirl since I'm working on my 1/3 live cash game. First off, after playing thousands of hands online which is a tighter game compared to live, I don't like opening with hands such as A5s in early position since I tend not to get paid off when I do get there and end up folding when I miss. It's just hard extracting the max when oop.


My REAL TIME thoughts on YOUR (from their perspective), FRIEND's , and aggressive VILLAIN's range are:
FRIEND:
Pocket 2s and J10, although I think she would've have bet larger on the the turn.
Looks like QJ/KJ of clubs to me with her bet on the turn. She might lead out with KJ/QJ Off but I don't know if I'm snap calling a raise in MP and then leading out the turn.

JJ/10 10 are possible but I would have 3bet pre, and definitely would have sized up my turn bet. But it's possible that she played a set this way.


VILLAIN, J10, Q9, 89, KQ, K3s, KJ, QJ.
45, A5d are not very likely.


YOUR:
Ax of clubs, AJs, QQ-AA, KQs after your call on the flop. I'm not sure if I'm just calling with a set of 10s or Jacks and even J10 since you're OOP on a wet board with 2 opponents. So I take you off those hands.


I would have played it the same, and x/r the flop if the 2d was a 5d. Gives you a pair along w/ your NFD.


As played, I like flatting and if your FRIEND 4bets, then you can shove since I'm pretty sure the VILLAIN will be doing that.
If your friend calls you're getting roughly 3 to 1 on a call?


Depending on our fold equity, I will shove the turn, but sounds like the VILLAIN isn't going anywhere. So question is, why shove here? Call and if you make your hand, hope he has 2 pair and value bet the river.


I'm curious on how the hand turned out!!
Hmmm.....
 
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Blair29

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Not a ton of things make sense with the turn raise, not really much villain can pick up draw wise. The only unmade hand that might make sense is the 54c but you block that.

Its possible villain has 2 pair or a set and decided not to over inflate a muti way pot on the flop, but with his style of play I doubt it.

The thing that would concern me is that villain can't really expect a ton of folds given your friends stack size. And with her betting into 3 people I'm guessing she has a minimum of AJ. So unless he isn't thinking about stack sizes I'd guess he is beating the bottom of her range, or has a big draw like KQc or QJc, but i'd expect those drawing hands to either check raise flop or keep check calling.

As much as I'd be tempted to shove here, I think I'm finding a fold.But its a really weird spot, if I thought I could get away with just flatting I would, but given the action I don't think its possible.
 
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mikeisthebestever

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This is a really tough spot but I think I would find a fold for the following reasons.

I think most of the combo draws he plays this way are going to be suited clubs. I think your friend is going to show up with sets here FREQUENTLY.

Out of the gate that is 4 of your outs dead. The ones that pair the board, and the ones villain is holding. You have maybe 8 outs left including the 4s for your gutter.

NEVER call here. Your friend could squeeze behind you, if you make a flush you probably wont get paid off, and if you make a flush that pairs the board you could be in a really sticky spot.

I think since you only have 55$ invested at this point, I would just find a better spot.
 
TheBigFinn

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I like the description. The question is, "What hands do your friend and Villain call pre and the flop " Almost anything. Your bet pre and check on the flop marks you as weak pair or draw. From your description, it is unlikely you can push Villain off and your friend is pot committed after her raise on the turn. If it was just you friend in the pot it is an easy call with a flush draw and a gut shot, 12 outs one time an ace on the river might also be good.

Why would Villain re-raise if he was on a draw? I'd guess he has at least a pair to go with his draw hard to see him with JJ or TT and not 3-bet pre. he could have trip 2s, I agree it is unlikely to have called the flop bet with just a pair of 3s. Villain's range is very wide and is unlikely to include top 10% hands. He can't believe your friend won't call. She has $220 left, and there is $437 in the pot. He has something and is unlikely to fold if you jam and neither is your friend.

At best you have a 25% chance to win ruling out jamming. If you call and your friend has something, she will jam and if she jams, Villain jams and you don't have the odds to call.

Time sigh deeply and fold.
 
Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

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I felt pretty confident in my read that he was raising a draw.

So I jammed and they both folded. She told me later she had KJ and she would have called with AJ which I believe both. I also figured she would 3bet me preflop with AJ at least some of the time do those combos were discounted.


It was crazy to get this through but I’ve got 25% equity if he has 2 pair or better and if he has a range that includes flush draws and combo draws and 2 pair then I’ve actually got 40% as I have his draws in jail. That’s before you consider fold equity. This was a weird one for sure. Can’t believe I pulled the trigger
 
Beanfacekilla

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This was a fun one from last night and I ended up in the hand with my best friend. The table was super deep too cuz 2 guys just kept going to the ATM and getting money out for me :)

Players and Stacks:
Hero: SB I've been doing well but just playing super tight and geting paid and I have $1,080
MP: My friend has ~$350 and she's taken some beats. She's better than me or at least as good as me.
HJ: has $1,200 (won a huge pot off me) Playing a ton of pots. loves to make huge bets/jams with draws and he keeps getting there.
BTN: solid, has ~$380. He button straddled this hand for $5



So I'm first to act in SB due to button straddle. I've been at this table 3+ hours and just mostly folding 90% of the time to these button straddles cuz the 2 guys doing it in my blinds are very competent and they will just punish me with position. I've just been playing nutted hands. But THIS hand I look down at :ac4::5c4: and decide to get frisky.


I come in for a raise of $15 (table standard) cuz I can't limp into the straddler.


My friend in MP insta calls in such a way that I'm pretty sure she has a hand that she recognizes as a "must play" but isn't strong enough to 3b for value with or weak enough to 3b bluff with. She generally isn't trying to play pots with me so she isn't splashing around with junk. I put her on a set mining hand or 2 broadways. No big aces for sure (she would 3b me for value with AQ+ and sometimes AJ)


CO calls the $15


BTN: calls the extra $10


4 to a flop pot contains $62


FLOP: :jd4::10c4::2c4:


I check (cuz I don't wanna get raised off my draw and my Cbet will never get through these 4 players anyways).


My friend in MP bets $40. CO calls. BTN folds. I do a mini tank basically considering whether or not I want to raise but I know she has something and she won't be fooled by my trickery and he doesn't like to fold so I decide I've got good enough pot odds and implied odds to peel.


TURN: :3h4: Pot contains $182


I check she bets $75 and he instantly raises her to $180.


Now....I've seen him do this quite often. He raises flop somewhat often but LOVES to raise turn bets. And he's shown up with a draw every time I've seen him showdown. (doesn't mean he has one now.....but I'm thinking he would have raised flop with a set or 2 pair because at the time he was facing her flop bet there were still 4 players in the pot and a flush draw on board.). And I don't think he could have ever turned a set of 3s. So I feel his range is really draw heavy and occasionally he has JT or a set. I'm pretty sure he's not raising 1 pair here.


So....Pot now contans $437 and I have $1,025 back.


Call, Jam or fold?

I would fold as played.




I like your thinking in this one too. On the flop, I would not cbet, but I personally might have C/R the flop. There is merit to your decision though, and I don't mind it.


We do have a GS and obv the NFD here, and if you think you have fold equity, maybe a jam is in order..... that's a risky play. But sometimes the reads we get in real time are almost like a sixth sense, so I can't really know, and I'm an instinct player myself.


So, that being said, I could go either way on this one. I think it plays easier if we just C/R flop, but maybe that's too crazy.




I don't think I would ever flat the 180 though, like ever. Shove or fold.

Edit: a shoves might not be necessary, a raise to 500 or 600 might accomplish the same thing here. Was thinking about it, came back to fix it.




That's my thoughts on it. Hope they help.
 
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