$200 NLHE Full Ring: To fire 3 barrels or not

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RAFC24

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Hi all

Live game. Random villain doesn't seem too bad. I am on the button with AQd. Two limpers I raise to 10$. Both call. Effective stacks 150$ ish.

Flop: Jd9d7s.

Checks to me, i fire 15$ with overs, NFD. One caller

Turn is a 6h it goes check check

River is a Ks it goes check check and he tables JT For the win.

My analysis: This type of flop gives limp calling ranges ton of catches. But i have a great hand in the circumstances. So of course i fire a c-bet and he called, predictably.

Turn: That turn really helps none of his weak hands and does not hurt his calling range and he essentially takes his whole flop calling range to the turn. Do I fire again to represent an overpair, set, two pair etc? I was not sure if he would make a sensible fold like middle pair, gutshot, draw etc. So i got timid and checked.

River: Ks can I rep AK that fired twice? Continue barreling with an overpair here? I was not even sure if he tried to put me on something or was just looking at his own two. Any other thoughts on this river?

Thing is i did not have a good read on this player yet i was sitting 10 minutes. But how do you guys handle this bread and butter type situation that comes up fairly often ( save for my timid turn and river play :D)

Thanks for your thoughts!
 
IPlay

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My general rule, don't bluff in live 1/2 games. They don't fold.

You bet big "Why so big? Must be bluffing! CALL!!"

You bet small "I just can't fold for that price! CALL!!" (They only see bets as big or small)

You bet this river "Well.... the flush draw missed! CALL!!"

They literally look for any possible reason to call so choose your bluffs carefully and 3 barrel bluffing live low stakes is going to be lighting money on fire pretty often. Especially with how passive the games play some villains limp call AK/KJ and play them this exact same way except they might bet river.
 
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seventhsense

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If he's decent, which he probably isn't, you can fold him out with a triple barrel. Double and you'll get called down.

If he's not decent, then it's not worth it. You'll get called Saying that, I probably barrel the turn and give up on the river in this scenario.
 
Beanfacekilla

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My general rule, don't bluff in live 1/2 games. They don't fold.

You bet big "Why so big? Must be bluffing! CALL!!"

You bet small "I just can't fold for that price! CALL!!" (They only see bets as big or small)

You bet this river "Well.... the flush draw missed! CALL!!"

They literally look for any possible reason to call so choose your bluffs carefully and 3 barrel bluffing live low stakes is going to be lighting money on fire pretty often. Especially with how passive the games play some villains limp call AK/KJ and play them this exact same way except they might bet river.



Literally LOL at this. It's spot on too.

Not betting turn, he's not folding turn with most of what he called flop with. I just check down after that. River, nope, not betting. We have ace high. Live players don't fold.
 
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seventhsense

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Literally LOL at this. It's spot on too.

Not betting turn, he's not folding turn with most of what he called flop with. I just check down after that. River, nope, not betting. We have ace high. Live players don't fold.

There are some 7x and 9x hands we can fold out by betting the turn. I actually think at least half of the flop calling range can be folded out on the turn with a decently sized bet.
 
IPlay

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There are some 7x and 9x hands we can fold out by betting the turn. I actually think at least half of the flop calling range can be folded out on the turn with a decently sized bet.

But most 7x and 9x hands improve to Open ended straight draws and 2 pair with the 6 so probably not. I am barreling here with the NFD sometimes but not on a 6 turn. Also if you are going to cbet this flop you should probably bet closer to pot.
 
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RAFC24

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If we fire the turn and get called, how often do we fire/ship river?
 
Aces2w1n

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yeh last casino table i played i double barrelled with kj qith a low board and got called with kq.. this guy wasnr good just calling station lol but i got money back

so yeh iplay is right they always call
 
Beanfacekilla

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There are some 7x and 9x hands we can fold out by betting the turn. I actually think at least half of the flop calling range can be folded out on the turn with a decently sized bet.


How much live poker do you play? That is not a good turn card to barrel with nothing.

Not to mention, every live donkey thinks every person who raises pre has A-K (if they can beat A-K that is).
 
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seventhsense

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How much live poker do you play? That is not a good turn card to barrel with nothing.

Not to mention, every live donkey thinks every person who raises pre has A-K (if they can beat A-K that is).

I used to play 4-5 nights a week. We're barrelling with the nut flush draw, so not nothing. We fold out A7 and A9 a lot. Remember we likely have 15 outs that make us best so we don't have to make him fold very often versus the amount of times we stack him when we hit.

Also, OP said he was not a bad player.
 
Beanfacekilla

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I used to play 4-5 nights a week. We're barrelling with the nut flush draw, so not nothing. We fold out A7 and A9 a lot. Remember we likely have 15 outs that make us best so we don't have to make him fold very often versus the amount of times we stack him when we hit.

Also, OP said he was not a bad player.


If he's a good player, why would he fold, when the board didn't change? Anything he called flop with, he's not folding now. This is why we probably just take a free card here.
 
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seventhsense

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If he's a good player, why would he fold, when the board didn't change? Anything he called flop with, he's not folding now. This is why we probably just take a free card here.

The board didn't change but the dynamic does as OP's range gets stronger when he barrels.

Are you saying if you hit TP, you're calling 3 barrels if the turn and river brick because the board didn't change?
 
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seventhsense

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FWIW I think it's close. Checking is fine, I just prefer betting again. It also sets up an aggro table image that is massively useful live.
 
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duggs

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im firing turn at least, river probably as well.
 
Beanfacekilla

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The board didn't change but the dynamic does as OP's range gets stronger when he barrels.

Are you saying if you hit TP, you're calling 3 barrels if the turn and river brick because the board didn't change?

Depending on my read, and my cards, but yeah maybe. I'm usually not the one calling though, I'm the one that's betting.

But I do sometimes do call downs, if I think my opponent is bluffing, and the only way I can get him to continue putting $$$ in the pot, is by checking and calling, like I am trying to draw.



im firing turn at least, river probably as well.

I get this, and depending on villain I may fire turn, but might not. I can count on one hand the amount of times I 3 barrel bluff in one year. It's expensive, and live players just don't like to fold.

Not to mention effective stacks are $150 to start, so how much FE do we really have on this river, if our V calls the turn? How much do we bet? $15/$35/ship?$75?

If the dude calls the turn, he rarely folds river. It's super high variance, and we run into it a bunch.

And while it may work once in a while, it's not worth the risk. We don't need to be triple barreling with air to beat $1/$2 live. It's a high variance line that isn't necessary. Usually when villains call turn, they aren't folding the river. Edit: I don't expect him to fold this turn alot, with whatever he called flop with.

If we hit, yeah great. You know the numbers as well as anyone. What % are we when we miss turn, for hitting a flush on the river? An Ace?



However, in this case, if we had bet turn, bet river, yes it might work cause of that king coming off. But we don't really know it's going to come off when/if we bet turn. Hell, we might be able to check back turn, and still steal on the river here, for cheaper? But I just don't think it's very likely he folds if we take that route either, because it looks fishy then.
 
duggs

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Ill address the rest later but im goong to tale issue with the " we dont need to do this to beat the level thing" its really faulty logic i see alot. The point isnt to beat 1/2 live, point is to beat it for the most possible
 
Beanfacekilla

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Ill address the rest later but im goong to tale issue with the " we dont need to do this to beat the level thing" its really faulty logic i see alot. The point isnt to beat 1/2 live, point is to beat it for the most possible


Fair enough.... I'll listen to whatever you have to say.
 
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AshTheGreat

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My general rule, don't bluff in live 1/2 games. They don't fold.

You bet big "Why so big? Must be bluffing! CALL!!"

You bet small "I just can't fold for that price! CALL!!" (They only see bets as big or small)

You bet this river "Well.... the flush draw missed! CALL!!"

They literally look for any possible reason to call so choose your bluffs carefully and 3 barrel bluffing live low stakes is going to be lighting money on fire pretty often. Especially with how passive the games play some villains limp call AK/KJ and play them this exact same way except they might bet river.

LOL this is the funniest and best advice possible. I 100% agree. As annoying as it is, the only move in a 1/2 or 1/3 live NL is to just check fold if you missed or check call a very weak bet hoping to hit on the turn.

Edit: I just noticed you also had the NFD here. Depending on your opponent and bankroll, you CAN consider a triple (and only a triple) barrel here, but always follow through and be prepared to go all in and double up your opponent on every brick and overcard unless another J rolls out. Your bets should be something like: $21 flop, $45 turn, all in ($84 effective you said?) river. You might not be deep enough for a triple to not get called down.
 
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IPlay

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There is a universe where we can barrel here but isn't 8x/6x non diamond just about the nut worst cards we can barrel on? You could throw 10x in there too but atleast it gives us more equity and is a scare card since there is now 4 to a straight out there.

Pot on flop $33 eff. stack size $140

Pot on turn $63 eff. Stack size $125

What sizing can we use that still lets us have FE on river? We have to bet atleast $35 on turn which leaves us with $90 eff. on river with a $133 pot. Which isn't terrible and we can get some hands too fold but I don't think Jx is always folding in a live game and we are going to run into KJ sometimes.

I like triple barreling for the sizings above on A/K/Q/J/4/3/2 or any diamond turn but the 6 is just a meh card to barrel on and I'm not always barreling 4/3/2 as a standard play in a live low stakes game. Would need to know the villain floats a lot of cbets and folds to double barrels.
 
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Thanks for your feedback all

First i would like to say I love the discussion and opinions this hand has generated. I thank you all for your feedback.

Both plays (giving up and barreling to the finish line) have merit here, especially considering the great opinions backing each point.

I did some math. I started off by giving villain a very generous limp-calling range as is typical of most 1-2$ guys.

Preflop: 22-QQ, AKs-A2s, AKo-A9o,KQs-K7s,KQo-KTo, QJs-56s,QJo-89o,QTs-75s,Q9s-96s,QTo. Because he was somewhat decent i wont give him super wide fishy ranges.

On our Jd 9d 7s flop, about 155 hand combos hit that, essentially divided very evenly between good hands, i.e top pairs, two pairs, sets, good combo draws and weaker ones like second pair, middle pairs, open enders etc

His check call on this wet board, IMO eliminates most sets, two pairs etc from his range, he would raise those on this "dangerous" board. Its how most 1-2$ protect their hands. So now we can eliminate about 15-20 strong hands from his range.

Next the 6h helps very few of his weaker hands, it mostly gives some small fd a pair to go along and creates some open enders for 88, 89. Essentially it helps about 25% of his weak range.

So on the turn he has less strong hands and just as many second best type hands he would consider folding, especially if its the type who can find a fold here and there.

So a turn barrel definitely has some merits here.

Plus add the times we hit and I think that while opinions are roughly divided here, this type of situation when we are deeper stacked like beanfacekilla mentioned sets up a profitable river shove.

Iplay's funny depiction of 1-2$ player's logic is sound and imo enough to keep you in the game indefinitely lol

I am personally an advocate of firing again and not just fit or folding. Imo a decent amount of players will fold 2nd pair even top pair here at 1-2$ you just have to kind of figure out which will. I know there are a few because i am one and I have seen it too. Especially with a changing dynamic during the hand as mentionned by seventhsense. This guy seemed like the type to make a "sensible fold" but as I mentionned I hadn't played long enough to be sure.

My takeaways from this hand:

1) A 3 barell bluff is definitely doable here provided we are deep enough to have decent FE against this type of player. (Decent enough to fold here and there)

2) A 3 barell bluff has to be used pretty sparingly taking into account the type of players we are dealing with. I've seen plenty of 3 barell bluffs, both busted and shown after winning the hand, so I personally believe 1-2$ players do fall into a few sub categories who will make "sensible folds" There aren't many though :) :)

Thanks again for your help guys
 
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I think the check on the river is fine. Sometimes running too many bluffs is counter productive. Occasionally your hand is good too at showdown too.

But in this spot, I would liked to see the bet on the flop, check the turn and fire a 2/3 bet on the river due to the board texture. Q 10 would play it exactly like this, it's reasonable for a KQ to play it like this (two overs with a gutshot) and KX . Also with the 2/3 bet on the river, it may also make him question his kicker assuming he still thought his Jack was likely to be good.
 
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