$200 NLHE Full Ring: Facing a double barrel from a deep stacked Reg; Fold, Call, or Raise?

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Hammii5010

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$200 NLHE Full Ring: Facing a double barrel from a deep stacked Reg; Fold, Call, or Raise?

Afternoon,

Pre-hand information: I'm at my regular casino in Delaware. Never played on Tuesdays but I recognized many regs at this table that normally play $1-3. Some are nit regs, some are $1-3 players slumming, the rest I have never seen before but seemed to know the other $1-3 players. Oh and one fish chasing everything. All polite individuals and social.

Villian info: I had one hand with villain early in the game with Th Td. It went to show down with some what lower beating on the streets with me calling Villain on each street (something like $10 pre-flop, $20 turn, villain checked the turn, $25 on river, check/check show). He showed JJ and won, but the price surprised me, it was so low I thought I was good here. All the $ hands that villain where in that went to showdown, he had set or better. IMPORTANT INFO; I was folding too much to his cbets in other hands too.

The villain is in seat 3 im in 4. At this point the villain has cleaned out the fish twice and is sitting a large stack (over $500). I had about $225-250.

I dont remember how many limped in before me, maybe 3-4 including the villain to my right for $2.

I raised it up to $10 with TsTc in either the cutoff or middle position. Got 3 callers including the villain.

Flop comes down: J 9 5 rainbow. Checks to villain who bets $35, I call and everyone else folds.

Turn is a Q. Villain barrels again for $45 this time.

What would you do here? Fold, call, or raise?


I'll let you know my thoughts during the hand and the day after I analyzed it over and over.

Let me know if you need more information to make an informed decision.

Thanks!
 
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willko01000

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I would call it seems the villain has a hold on the game and in this situation you have half his stack and you need to get a grip on the game to make it worthy continuing as you are playing for cash.

I think in this situation a push is needed and this kind of outlook is the sort of setup in my opinion that can very often bring the fruits. If you lose then you go back to playing a tight game which given the other payers seems like the strategy your gonna have to play even if this should not turn over.

Of course you can keep your calls tight but with someone like that it will prob be one hell of a long haul until you hit that big hand.
 
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Gildog89

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I would be raising villain's flop lead. You have repped a tight passive image with folding to too many c-bets and with what you said about calling down your previous pocket tens hand with villain. The flop lead is weak, and a raise will fold out a ton of villain's range.


As played, I think you have to fold the turn. The Q hit too much of villain's range, and now you have 3rd pair with the open ended draw. You are not getting the odds to draw and I think villain is pot committed now, so not much fold equity with a raise now. Why do I get the feeling you are about to hit your K only to be coolered by AT?
 
Verdue167

Verdue167

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I would fold. Because: 2 overs, double barrel is strong, villain did not show much aggression with JJ before. Anything else: what Gildog says, although i don'agree V is pot commited, as he paid 10+35+45 =90$ of a $500 stack.
 
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Hammii5010

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In real time , I put him on J 9. That is something that would want to see a flop for cheap because he limped in for $2 with others in late position.

I also blocked most straights because I had TT
 
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RakeMyLife

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$10 pre with 3-4 limpers already in the hand is not nearly enough to get value or isolate appropriately there.

Soo...on the flop you are forced to play this passively since 10-10 is terrible against villain's range. I fold the flop, def fold the turn.

Note: Raising the flop is not a bad idea if you like your image but I think you're up against a Jx (he's not likely to be betting you out in a multi-way pot).
 
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Hammii5010

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2Pac


That bad huh? As someone who started playing poker 3 months ago, I love to know what I said that got this reaction. Did I not block most of his straight possibilities?
 
mbrenneman0

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Id fold OTF. Idk if theres enpugh info for amy real analysis, but when villains donk, 9 times out of ten they hit top pair with a strong kicker. Villain donks nearly PSB on this flop, im guessing hes got a Jack.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Afternoon,

Pre-hand information: I'm at my regular casino in Delaware. Never played on Tuesdays but I recognized many regs at this table that normally play $1-3. Some are nit regs, some are $1-3 players slumming, the rest I have never seen before but seemed to know the other $1-3 players. Oh and one fish chasing everything. All polite individuals and social.

Villian info: I had one hand with villain early in the game with Th Td. It went to show down with some what lower beating on the streets with me calling Villain on each street (something like $10 pre-flop, $20 turn, villain checked the turn, $25 on river, check/check show). He showed JJ and won, but the price surprised me, it was so low I thought I was good here. All the $ hands that villain where in that went to showdown, he had set or better. IMPORTANT INFO; I was folding too much to his cbets in other hands too.

The villain is in seat 3 im in 4. At this point the villain has cleaned out the fish twice and is sitting a large stack (over $500). I had about $225-250.

I dont remember how many limped in before me, maybe 3-4 including the villain to my right for $2.

I raised it up to $10 with TsTc in either the cutoff or middle position. Got 3 callers including the villain.

Flop comes down: J 9 5 rainbow. Checks to villain who bets $35, I call and everyone else folds.

Turn is a Q. Villain barrels again for $45 this time.

What would you do here? Fold, call, or raise?


I'll let you know my thoughts during the hand and the day after I analyzed it over and over.

Let me know if you need more information to make an informed decision.

Thanks!


Fold. Next hand. He has you crushed most likely, and you need help. You can't win unless you hit the straight. I don't know why you check called the flop either. You described a villain who doesn't bet with nothing (I did read quickly, maybe I missed something). Just fold the flop, and realize you have very little equity if V has Jx.

It seems to me he is trying to make you call. I'm not sure here. Just fold the flop. This is why we don't check call and get ourselves into these spots. You are very vague about position as well, like what position is V and so on.

You could try a cbet here, but I lean towards C/F because no one is folding Jx, and you block SD so.....

On this flop, if you're behind, you are waaaaay behind. one poor decision leads to another spot on the turn. Money saved is money earned.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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Fold. Next hand. He has you crushed most likely, and you need help. You can't win unless you hit the straight. I don't know why you check called the flop either. You described a villain who doesn't bet with nothing (I did read quickly, maybe I missed something). Just fold the flop, and realize you have very little equity if V has Jx.

It seems to me he is trying to make you call. I'm not sure here. Just fold the flop. This is why we don't check call and get ourselves into these spots. You are very vague about position as well, like what position is V and so on.

You could try a cbet here, but I lean towards C/F because no one is folding Jx, and you block SD so.....

On this flop, if you're behind, you are waaaaay behind. one poor decision leads to another spot on the turn. Money saved is money earned.
Hero is in position acting behind villain. This is a donk bet from villain. Hes saying the other players in the hand checked to the villain.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Hero is in position acting behind villain. This is a donk bet from villain. Hes saying the other players in the hand checked to the villain.



That does change things a little. I still say fold, we don't have much equity. Not to mention hero is cold calling here I assume.
 
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Gildog89

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I think villain either has a J or is open ended (KQ also in villain's range). With such a passive image, why not rep the over pair with a raise on the flop? Especially if your going to call 2 streets anyway. If not a raise on the flop, fold. I don't like the call at all.
 
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Hammii5010

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I called the flop bet because most players CBet, almost, on principle it seems. So I got the see myself improve to an open ended straight draw.

Like I said above , in real time I put him on a pair like J5 or J9 and would need a straight to win. So it was a long shot like 15-17% I think. This was quick napkin math in my head. The smallish bet on the turn seemed strange to me, showing either weakness or he was trying to keep me in the pot ( like many have said here).


I folded.


The odds to hit the straight seemed too low. And even if I did hit the straight it would have been obvious to the V and I wouldn’t have gotten paid anyway.


But on the drive home I thought it over and felt like Gildog that a raise or all in when the Q dropped on the turn to around $120 + could have represented a set of queens or a finished straight. Even if he called I still had a shot to win if a T, K, or 8 dropped on the river.


I did the math with 10 possible out my odds improve to like 23% if he called. I hope I did it right, 52-6= 46. 10/46= 22%?


What do you think? Based off what most said fold was right but against a good player could I have represented Q set here?


I also know now that being one of the last to act (I’m pretty sure I was CO) that I should have raised higher, like $17or 20.


I need to get better at preflop decisions!
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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thats not a C-bet on the flop. thats a donk bet, thats a huge difference.

I agree that your preflop raise should have been bigger. i usually go 15 but its not a set number. its going to be different for every table you play. some times, 15 isnt enough and you go 7 ways to the flop. sometimes 15 is too much and nobody calls. every table you play at, you want to kind of watch preflops to see how people react to different raise sizes. your raise size also shouldnt be based on your position or the strength of your hand. it should only be based on what it takes to get headsup going into the flop.


that being said, your preflop decision isnt as bad as your flop decision. to me, thats your biggest mistake in this hand and then it was compounded by putting yourself into a difficult turn situation.

A C-bet is when the aggressor from the previous street makes a bet. the aggressor is the player who made the last bet or raise.

A Donk bet is when someone who is not the aggressor bets out of position of the aggressor.

in this hand, you are the preflop aggressor. so when the villain, who is not the aggressor, bets out of position from you, that needs to be read differently.

If villain was the preflop aggressor and this was indeed a C-bet, then i think it would be a fine call on the flop. but because its a donk bet, that usually means that the villain has a piece of the board and has you beat.

i think youre overvaluing your open ender here. when playing live poker, you should employ a K.I.S.S. strategy. my entire thought process on this flop would literally be: "he donk bet, that means he has a pair of jacks or better almost always, unless i have seen for myself that he has donked with worse than top pair, I only have 2 outs to improve, I fold." doesnt need to be any more complicated than that.

also its generally a bad idea to try to represent a specific hand when you're bluffing. you should try to represent a range of hands that has a balanced amount of value hands and bluffs. like when you ask if you can represent QQ here, how would you represent QQ? would you raise the turn? what other hands do you raise the turn with? if QQ is the only value hand that you raise the turn with then youre representing a range that's unbalanced with almost all bluffs. thats something youll understand better as you grow as a poker player, but focus on the ABCs first. as a beginner you should probably just focus on simple C-bet bluffs
 
Beanfacekilla

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I think villain either has a J or is open ended (KQ also in villain's range). With such a passive image, why not rep the over pair with a raise on the flop? Especially if your going to call 2 streets anyway. If not a raise on the flop, fold. I don't like the call at all.



Because he doesn't have any equity. Can't be raising with very little chance of improvement. I personally think we should raise only if we actually have an over pair.
 
Beanfacekilla

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I called the flop bet because most players CBet, almost, on principle it seems. So I got the see myself improve to an open ended straight draw.

Like I said above , in real time I put him on a pair like J5 or J9 and would need a straight to win. So it was a long shot like 15-17% I think. This was quick napkin math in my head. The smallish bet on the turn seemed strange to me, showing either weakness or he was trying to keep me in the pot ( like many have said here).


I folded.


The odds to hit the straight seemed too low. And even if I did hit the straight it would have been obvious to the V and I wouldn’t have gotten paid anyway.


But on the drive home I thought it over and felt like Gildog that a raise or all in when the Q dropped on the turn to around $120 + could have represented a set of queens or a finished straight. Even if he called I still had a shot to win if a T, K, or 8 dropped on the river.


I did the math with 10 possible out my odds improve to like 23% if he called. I hope I did it right, 52-6= 46. 10/46= 22%?


What do you think? Based off what most said fold was right but against a good player could I have represented Q set here?


I also know now that being one of the last to act (I’m pretty sure I was CO) that I should have raised higher, like $17or 20.


I need to get better at preflop decisions!



We don't need to rep anything here. Leaks start by questionable decisions, then we turn open ender, then we leak more.

This is live poker man. Everyone is atrocious and they call too much. We aren't in the business of trying to blow some dude off a hand. I personally would hate it a little real time, but I still fold the flop most likely. We can't be going broke with 10-10 on J-9-X.
 
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Hammii5010

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Ok. Learned something new, donk vs. CBet.

Yeah, I’m seeing that I made a ton of mistakes which I would have compounded as the hand progressed.

Thanks all. I really appreciate it.

Going to a fishy ( well that is what people at my local casino call this place) casino in Philadelphia called Sugar House on Friday. Anyone been there? Maybe I should make this a new thread....
 
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Gildog89

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Yeah, your right of course. Repping the over pair is a win a little/lose a lot proposition. I need to stop making these leaky plays.
 
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i'd almost put money on it V was on 8Ts or JTo. I would cancel out QQ/ as he would likely check/check raise to trap you.
you can cancel KQ, as V wouldn't have bet the flop like that with a gutshot
There is always a small chance he was on AA/KK hoping for a raise preflop, slowrolling and pricing you out of any draw.


I think he had a hand on the flop + a good draw when the Q dropped, and knew you had a hand preflop. You made the right call folding. He knew he had equity.


how well does the V know your game?


If i was in your position: on the BB and everyone limped, i would probably 5 bet to rep AK - QQ range, and fold if any re-raise. I would probably check raise the flop, if my raise was re-raised i would have folded confirming im up against 8T / JT. If he checked no re-raise, i would almost put him on AA. I would of given it 2 barrels and dropped a 3/4 pot bet on the river as long as there is no 7, T or K / flush on the board.
If i was the villan: I'm a tight/aggressive player, and the only way i'd bet like that with less than top pair is if i had an open ended straight + flush draw + set draw, or was outright bluffing because i know you are on sub J pocket pair.


everyone plays a slightly different game, but generally, no one plays out of position.
 
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I would fold in that spot.You are the preflop raiser and have stronger range.
But he double barrel and there are two over cards on the table.
though u have information against him
but his range would be 99 55 KJo TJs~KJs QTs QTo QJo 9Js
maybe AJo / JJ / TT KQs KQo TJo but unlikelythe V's range is too strong
facing that range, your equity would be 26%~31%
So I would fold in that spot.
 
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Hammii5010

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Some have asked how much info I have on him.

- first time I have played against him at the same table, I know he plays in the $1-3 game when there is one
- he is a reg at this casino, knows all the dealers etc
- I had a show down with him earlier TT vs JJ were the betting sizes were not crazy
- watched his other hands that went to show down and he had it (top pair or better) vs others every time never mucked or bluffed
 
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