$200 NLHE Full Ring: Deep Stacked, against ultra LAG.

$200 NL HE Full Ring: Deep Stacked, against ultra LAG.

not my hand per se, just a hand that i saw pan out when i was at the table. hero's my grinding buddy, he's pretty LAG, but nothing compared to villian, who obviously patterns his play after tom dwan. both have some history, and the intention to outplay the other is apparent.

both pretty deep stacked, with just under $600 each.

HERO: Q 9 spades.

preflop: hero raises to $9, folded around to villian on button, who repops it to $24. blinds fold and hero calls the $15.

Flop: 2 4 8, rainbow with the 2 of spades.
hero checks, villian bets $40. hero calls.

Turn: K of spades.
hero checks, villian bets $85. hero calls.

River: 2 of hearts.
hero checks, villian bets $135. hero:?

would be interesting to know what u guys put villian on and what u would do if u were hero on the river.

I don't like the preflop call. Yeah, we're deep, and while it's OK to play some speculative hands deep, Q9s is not really one of them. Suited aces would have been different, because at least then we can feel certain that we have the nuts when we hit a flush on a non-paired board. Or, differently put: We're hoping to be paid off with a speculative hand and we think the $576 left in the effective stack will be enough implied odds. But there's no way our implied odds are that great because we're very rarely going to get paid off on a flushy board with the third nut flush by something worse.

Anyway.

I don't like peeling the flop. I could see an argument for it if the intention is to take it away from him on the turn, but we apparently decide to forfeit that chance when we get there. With the description given of villain I don't like raising the flop either because apparently it won't work very often. So I fold the flop. We took a chance with a speculative hand, we missed, we move on.

I really don't like check/calling the turn. And while I think check/raising the turn shows a profit, my preferred line by far is to bet the turn with the intention of shoving if we get raised. That's assuming I somehow get to the turn.

On the river, there's certainly nothing wrong with folding. Would shoving show a profit? Maybe. Except we're not representing much. Did we get it to the river with a flopped set? That's just 7 combos. What else could we possibly have that makes sense? His value range is much (much, much) wider than our value checkraising range here. He can have aces, kings, AK (probably KQ as well depending on our own image) and any set. If we're going to jam here, we're down to pretending we slowplayed a set. We can't represent KQ or KJs or something like that because that would normally be a bluffcatcher, not a river raise.

But I don't know how wide his river betting range is. And I don't know how compulsively your friend slowplays, so perhaps there could be monsters in his range that I'm not thinking of (AA,KK for instance).

In summary: Playing 300 deep OOP sucks. Avoid it if you can. And here, I think your friend had a lot of opportunities to avoid it.

this thread should be titled:

-HERO goes into FPS-mode at an inappropriate time


anyways if you're gonna be reverse floating the flop, you might as well just c/r the turn once you pick up your FD

I don't like any decisions on any street.

agreed, i disliked the way he played the whole hand, but as i mentioned, the desire to outplay this particular opponent was probably overwhelming. -ev i know, but would like to hear what u guys put the villian on to bet every street.

postflopper said:

agreed, i disliked the way he played the whole hand, but as i mentioned, the desire to outplay this particular opponent was probably overwhelming. -ev i know, but would like to hear what u guys put the villian on to bet every street.

Click to expand...

a good hand?

It's hard to put the villain on any hand because if we assume he's LAG, he could be playing anything and by calling him on each street your buddy never put any pressure on him to help figure out where he's at.

Your friend is at a severe disadvantage at information gathering by being out of position. The only way we can figure anything out is by him leading out and seeing what the villain does in response.

I don't think given this scenario you can put the villain on any particular hand...except for the fact that the only hand the hero is beating is total air without an ace.

I just don't like this play at this level.


I watch High Stakes Poker and you see Tom Dwan and Sammy Farha make big plays on crap hands all the time. I don't think this works at lower stakes...I don't think these types of plays work online as much either because people have a tendency to wait for good cards (as they are seeing soooo many more hands) and are thus much less likely to fold to big bluffs.

nice. i particularly like the latest 2 replies. will keep it in mind when i see him next time.

Pre is either 4 bet or fold, imo. If hero thinks his hand is better thand the buttons range, then 4 bet. Or 4 bet bacause we know the btn has a wide range and we can resteal, rather than for value.

After we c/c the flop the villian can be pretty sure we dont have a monster unless there is a history of playing bigs hand in a similar fashion. There are some kings in our range that a c/r may be a good idea on the turn as we also pick up a spade draw , but c/c again says we are weak.

Checking river, as played, means same as before. Weak. There are so few 2's and under repped sets/fh's in our range that villian can fiore a 3rd barrel with anything and feel comfortable that we cant call.

villan has either QQ,JJ or AA. If he had AK i think he'd jus call ur preflop raise n try 2 trap u to make move vaule from his hand IMO....
Obv he's making a c/bet on the flop cos he has an overpair.
The turn bet is to see where he stands if he has QQ.
The turn bet is for vaule if he has AA and he thinks u have KK.
The river is for vaule too, hero played too weak and villan is taking advantage of it.
If ur hero mate wanted to try turn this game around the a check/raise on the turn would of been best but other wise its pretty crappy play. But we all make mistakes...

i agree with the consensus that my friend played it bout as bad as he could. well, the astonishing thing about this hand was when my friend tanked for a minute after the villian's river bet. i was curious about wth he had and leaned over to take a peek. when he showed me his Q hi, i was like, rolling my eyes, thought he was doing a hollywood fold. but after another minute, he CALLED the river bet of 135!

villian called out nice call, no pair. and my friend confidently showed Q hi. whole table was shocked obviously. villian had 7 5 of spades, gutshot on flop and spade draw on turn.

weird weird hand.

Reminds me of that hand between Dwan and Helmuth where Helmuth shows down A-high on a several thousand dollar hand, and the whole table is like "what the hell just happend?". There must be some history between these guys to make that kind of call.

here's what my friend had to say when asked about the call.

'i raised pf to a pretty standard amt. and when he reraised me on the button, i knew he had trash. he likes to reraise pf with trash in position, especially against other loose players like me. so i called.

flop was trash, which would put it right in his range. i checked, but when he bet out near the pot size, i could tell that he couldnt have sth that strong, maybe just a pair. figured i could take it away if a scare card came on the turn. i did have 2 overs with a bd flush draw too. so i called.

turn was a good card for me. i checked, intending to c/r, but i sorta chickened out, and called. i know, not the best play but... oh well.

river was a brick, at least imo. i checked once more, and when he bet out that much again. i paused to think. what on earth can he possibly have that he can bet the flop that strong, and not be afraid of the K on turn and bet that strong again? couldnt put him on a deuce. was thinking if its possible he had AA, but i've played with him often enough he could have 10hi, just as often as he could have AA in this spot. was really 50/50 in my mind. so i made the call. turned out i was right.

but thanks guys, appreciate the comments. it's not FPS, just that this villian and i have wayy too much history for me to just let him push me around. sorta like sammy farha and antonius on hsp s4. see u on the tables'

~Tz