$200 NLHE Full Ring: Combo draw against 3 limpers

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LeGenie

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Hi guys I would like some feedback on a hand that I played yesterday at a 1/2 NL live table. I limp UTG with A:club: T:club: 5 other players limp including the SB and BB.

Stack sizes:
BB: $150
Hero: $200
UTG+1: $200

The Flop comes: 9:heart: Q:club: 3:club: $12 in pot

BB leads for $10. Hero calls and UTG+1 calls as well. The other 3 players fold. Given that the table is loose and I have an army to act behind me I opt to flat the $10 bet to get as much money in the pot therefore improving my pot odds.

The Turn brings a 8:spade: $42 in pot

BB checks. Hero bets $20 given that I have plenty of equity in the hand on the turn with my combo draw and the BB and UTG+1 are loose players I have some fold equity against a weak Q or a 9.

Thanks in advance for the feedback guys!
 
duggs

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raise pre. i don't really see you having much fold equity at all against Qx tbh, very little against 9x
 
John A

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I'm not even going to ask why you're limping UTG with ATs.

I don't mind the turn bet to control the sizing, but doubtful you have any FE when 2 guys call you on the flop.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Everything's fine, except for that dumpster fire preflop.
 
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LeGenie

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raise pre. i don't really see you having much fold equity at all against Qx tbh, very little against 9x

Raising pre-flop with ATs full ring when you still have a full table to act behind you. That is not part of my EP pre-flop raising range given that villains can easliy wake up with a bigger hand and now you are playing a decent hand OOP. I prefer raising with it IP when I have some information on how players ahead of me acted and therefore act accordingly.
 
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LeGenie

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I'm not even going to ask why you're limping UTG with ATs.

I don't mind the turn bet to control the sizing, but doubtful you have any FE when 2 guys call you on the flop.

How is raising with ATs in a full ring game profitable on a loose 1/2 NL table? You still have 8 players to act behind you and any one of them can show up with a big hand and now you are playing a decent hand OOP. I prefer to raise with ATs IP when I have some information on the action that was ahead of me and therefore I can act accordingly.
 
duggs

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fold pre then.....
 
Arjonius

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How is raising with ATs in a full ring game profitable on a loose 1/2 NL table? You still have 8 players to act behind you and any one of them can show up with a big hand and now you are playing a decent hand OOP. I prefer to raise with ATs IP when I have some information on the action that was ahead of me and therefore I can act accordingly.
How is limping ATs in a full ring game profitable on a loose 1/2 NL table? You still have 8 players to act behind you and any one of them can show up with a big enough hand to raise, and now you're either folding or playing a hand that's behind any raiser's likely range OOP with a holding that doesn't flop well and is easily dominated.

If you believe you have enough skill advantage to play ATs profitably from EP at such a table, then open-raise. If you don't, then fold.
 
Figaroo2

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In have to agree with the guys here at a loose full ring table its a clear fold unless you are looking to be playing loose for a reason or the table is super weak.
You will nearly always be out of position and in this hand you were lucky twice. Once in that no one squeezed all the limpers and twice that you actually flopped a flush draw which isn't going to happen enough to compensate this easily dominated trouble hand. If you are going to limp A 10 you might as well limp any suited ace.
 
suby_rafael

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So if you to know if you should have bet the turn then yes checking here will be passive or conservative play. Perhaps you could have bet a little bigger.

I would have made a pot size bet here so that i could take the pot down right here representing a straight and it was a good spot to steal. If one of them calls my pot bet and we miss the river then we have to bluff here as we are representing a straight. I would fire another pot bet on the river in this case.
I would only slow down in case both players call my turn bet.
 
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LeGenie

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How is limping ATs in a full ring game profitable on a loose 1/2 NL table? You still have 8 players to act behind you and any one of them can show up with a big enough hand to raise, and now you're either folding or playing a hand that's behind any raiser's likely range OOP with a holding that doesn't flop well and is easily dominated.

If you believe you have enough skill advantage to play ATs profitably from EP at such a table, then open-raise. If you don't, then fold.

My strategy when limping with Ax suited in EP is to flop a flush draw and stack a K high or Q high flush when I hit and at 1/2 NL tables it happens quite often :)
Even when an Ace hits the board I proceed cautiously knowing that players tend to limp with hands like AJ, AQ, and sometimes even AK from any position.
 
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In have to agree with the guys here at a loose full ring table its a clear fold unless you are looking to be playing loose for a reason or the table is super weak.
You will nearly always be out of position and in this hand you were lucky twice. Once in that no one squeezed all the limpers and twice that you actually flopped a flush draw which isn't going to happen enough to compensate this easily dominated trouble hand. If you are going to limp A 10 you might as well limp any suited ace.


You are right I limp any suited Ace below a J. My strategy when limping with Ax suited in EP is to flop a flush draw and stack a K high or Q high flush when I hit and at 1/2 NL tables it happens quite often :)
Even when an Ace hits the board I proceed cautiously knowing that players tend to limp with hands like AJ, AQ, and sometimes even AK from any position.
 
duggs

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thats not a good strategy.
 
akaRobbo

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You are right I limp any suited Ace below a J. My strategy when limping with Ax suited in EP is to flop a flush draw and stack a K high or Q high flush when I hit and at 1/2 NL tables it happens quite often :)
Even when an Ace hits the board I proceed cautiously knowing that players tend to limp with hands like AJ, AQ, and sometimes even AK from any position.

Anyone with a decent amount of aggression will wipe the floor with you if you use this "strategy".

Players tend to limp with AJ, AQ and AK? Who on earth are you playing with?
 
Arjonius

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My strategy when limping with Ax suited in EP is to flop a flush draw and stack a K high or Q high flush when I hit and at 1/2 NL tables it happens quite often :)
Even when an Ace hits the board I proceed cautiously knowing that players tend to limp with hands like AJ, AQ, and sometimes even AK from any position.
Do you have evidence indicating this strategy actually is profitable? It's easy to remember a few times when you won big pots, but no, they don't happen often.

You're dealt any suited A somewhere around one time in 27 hands. Since you're talking about EP, let's assume 1/3 of the seats are EP. So, you're dealt a suited A in EP about once in 81 deals. Suited cards make a flush by the river about 1 time in 16. So you're dealt a suited A in EP and make a flush with it about 1 time in 1296 deals.

I don't know the odds of someone else having a flush when you have one, but they're not great. Let's say it happens one time out of every three you make your flush; I suspect it's even less often. So the scenario where you start with a suited A in EP, make a flush and beat a lower flush happens 1 time in 3888 deals.

This assumes you limp every suited A and get to see the river every time. So if you fold any hands before the river, the avg number of hands for each flush over flush to happen is even higher. Even ignoring this, at 25 deals per hour, 3888 deals take 155.5 hours. This doesn't seem like "quite often" to me.

I suspect you think your strategy is profitable because the big pots you win as you described are memorable while the many times you lose small amounts are not. And even if it is profitable, there's still the possibility it's not optimally profitable.
 
JPoling

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I like the hand just not the position. Then I'm not sure about bet on turn. I can see you were controlling pot size with that bet. But with 1 person left to act after me. I might of played that passively and just tried checking to try to get the free card for nut flush or straight. I really don't understand the pre-flop play in this though. Good motto "If it is worth calling, it is worth raising". That being said, was that worth raising in that position against the players you played? Even if you tell me table is loose. Good. More money gonna be generated into pot and I am showing strength raising UTG. I'm still learning. Just my opinion/observation.
 
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hffjd2000

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You said they are loose so a Qx will still call you.

Most likely what will happen is someone will call you and youre still behind on the turn. An ace will not even guarantee you a win on the river.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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I'm looking to next week, this is standard play!?
$1/$2 live is like $0.01/$0.02 online. You get a ton of people buying in with $40, limping every hand. And opening a pot for a $10 raise is pretty standard (just because it's easier to throw out two red chips).

So yeah, here's the script:

Go out with the lady from 8PM-11PM. Take her to dinner, have a drink or two, do a little dancing. Then send her to bed, and from 12-5AM, you stay up and take all the drunks money.
 
TEG2300

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If there is a simply way to put it what better hands can you get to fold and what worse hands can you get to call with this bet? Overall the fact that you mention it is a very loose table leads me to believe that you have no need to take the loose/passive path that limping UTG is. Remember there is never a one size fits all, so as long as you have a solid logic behind your choices defined by ranges (both your opponents range and their perceived range of your holdings) then you can make adjustments as the information changes.
 
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I'm going to add that I am confused with the strategy of limping UTG with ATs.

You said that you don't want to raise because bigger hands could be behind you. So, then do you intend to fold to a raise later in the hand?

If you are willing to call a raise with that hand, you should just raise with it. I'm not saying you should never limp in EP, but its pretty limited at 1/2. (I'm actually not fond of limping in EP live, but I guess I can except it with some hands)

I would much prefer to see you over limp in position with AXs than in EP with it. The reason you are saying not to raise is the same reason that you should fold. People may wake up with a better A in a later position.

Since most of the time you are only going to make TP with this hand, as far as when you are winning, what is your plan when that happens?

Say the flop comes like A 8 3 rainbow. You limped and someone raised and you called - or maybe everyone limped. Do you bet here with TP knowing that a better A could be out there? Or do you x/c with what may or may not be the best hand. I really don't like it. You are making life harder for yourself by making bad pre flop decisions. I'm not saying playing easy poker is playing better poker, but sometimes making things is easier is better.

fold pre.
 
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