$200 NLHE Full Ring: Calling down 2nd pair weak kicker awkward BvB

mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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So heres what I know about villain, he seems much better than most live players. maybe a live tournament background, but he has some severe tilt problems, and not just spewy tilt, but all kinds of different tilt where you might play scared because of a bad beat or such.

he's obviously not THAT good if he's only raising to 4bb with OOP with so many limpers. I think he had lost a lot of money before this hand, so on one hand, the size of his preflop raise could be trying to trap with a strong hand, or more likely a marginal hand that he knows he's supposed to raise but that he's not willing to commit a lot of chips to.

He does have decent hand reading skills and knows how to calculate the size of the pot

when he bet small on the turn, i considered raising because he didnt seem confident in his hand, but i decided against it because i had too much showdown value with the king

called the river for the same reason, too much showdown value to turn my hand into a bluff.

Live - $1/$2 NL - Holdem - 7 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: $200
UTG+1: $200
MP: $200
CO: $200
BTN: $200
SB: $200
Hero (BB): $145

SB posts SB $1, Hero posts BB $2

Pre Flop: (pot: $3) Hero has K 3

UTG calls $2, UTG+1 calls $2, MP calls $2, CO calls $2, BTN calls $2, SB raises to $8, Hero calls $6, fold, UTG+1 calls $6, MP calls $6, CO calls $6, BTN calls $6

Flop: ($50, 6 players) A K 7
SB bets $16, Hero calls $16, fold, fold, fold, fold

Turn: ($82, 2 players) 5
SB bets $10, Hero calls $10

River: ($102, 2 players) 5
SB bets $20, Hero calls $20
 
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PaxMundi

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I still think K3s is an easy fold pre.
 
c9h13no3

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I'd 3bet preflop, but I'm goofy like that. Just doesn't seem like anyone likes their cards that much, and we have position on villain (so he folds more often). Plus live 3bets get respect.


I suppose I fold the flop. It's not a great spot on the flop, calling with a crowd behind you. When he bets into 5 other guys, he probably has a weak ace at least. You didn't call with a s00ted king to make profit off 2nd pair.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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I still think K3s is an easy fold pre.

I mean, we're getting 3.3:1 pre against a weak range assuming no one else calls. if everyone calls (which is a fair possibility) then we're getting 7.3:1 against a few stronger ranges, but still a good price

K3s gets about 15% equity against 4 limp-calling ranges and villains scared SB raising range. and 41% against villains scared SB raising range headsup.

for reference, this is the sort of range i think villain is raising with to this sizing:
22+,AKs,A8s-A2s,KTs-K8s,QTs-Q8s,J8s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,76s,65s,AKo,QJo,JTo
 
mbrenneman0

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I'd 3bet preflop, but I'm goofy like that. Just doesn't seem like anyone likes their cards that much, and we have position on villain (so he folds more often). Plus live 3bets get respect.


I suppose I fold the flop. It's not a great spot on the flop, calling with a crowd behind you. When he bets into 5 other guys, he probably has a weak ace at least. You didn't call with a s00ted king to make profit off 2nd pair.


youre right on both accounts. i think a 3bet would be the play here. and youre right, didnt call pre to make 2nd pair
 
PaxMundi

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I mean, we're getting 3.3:1 pre against a weak range assuming no one else calls. if everyone calls (which is a fair possibility) then we're getting 7.3:1 against a few stronger ranges, but still a good price

K3s gets about 15% equity against 4 limp-calling ranges and villains scared SB raising range. and 41% against villains scared SB raising range headsup.

for reference, this is the sort of range i think villain is raising with to this sizing:
22+,AKs,A8s-A2s,KTs-K8s,QTs-Q8s,J8s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,76s,65s,AKo,QJo,JTo

I still think it's an easy fold pre.Restealing is ok i guess
 
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mbrenneman0

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i definitely think 20% 3betting frequency is reasonable here, but those 3bets arent all going to come from top 20% hands because a lot of those top 20% hands play well multiway and will make better flats
 
PaxMundi

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Id usually use a top 10% ish hand rather than K3s. I think this hand plays well as a 3bet bluff vs a late position steal without all the limpers.Probably a perfectly good resteal opportunity but i just don't like the call and id elect to fold mostly.
 
mbrenneman0

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what do you think about flatting QQ-AA here and most suited broadways like AQs KJs+ QJs and 3betting a range like JJ-55 AJo+ AJs-ATs KJo, QJo KTs-K3s+ QTs-Q8s JTs T9s and 98s? (EDIT: not an exact perfect range, but just an idea)

would you consider that there is value to flatting AA here with so many players behind to be "priced in" that might give you 3 streets of value if they hit a pair with no A or K on the board?
 
PaxMundi

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I hate the idea of flatting AA-QQ here , as i say id just resteal around the top 10% of hands.
 
PaxMundi

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that doesnt answer why though

Does from my perspective.Why would you flat a small iso from a fish with AA oop an induce a 6 way pot ?.Why wouldn't we just resteal here aggressively.
 
mbrenneman0

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because we want people to call our premium hands with worse hands. we dont want to turn AA into a bluff

also, a lot of people think multiway pots mean your hand doesnt hold up as often.... thats true, but thats not the whole equation. a hand holding up 25% of the time in a 4 way pot is equally profitable as a hand holding up 50% in a 2 way pot. make sense? that doesnt necessarily mean that we want to go 6 way in this situation, but i want to make sure that youre not in that mindset of thinking that the reduced equity in a multiway pot is the reason without considering the rest of the equation.

mathematically, if a particular hand holds up 70% of the time in a headsup pot, but holds up 40% of the time in a multiway pot, then theoretically its more profitable to take that hand to a multiway pot
 
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PaxMundi

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because we want people to call our premium hands with worse hands. we dont want to turn AA into a bluff
How is 3betting AA a bluff ? it's slam dunk value.


also, a lot of people think multiway pots mean your hand doesnt hold up as often.... thats true, but thats not the whole equation. a hand holding up 25% of the time in a 4 way pot is equally profitable as a hand holding up 50% in a 2 way pot. make sense? that doesnt necessarily mean that we want to go 6 way in this situation, but i want to make sure that youre not in that mindset of thinking that the reduced equity in a multiway pot is the reason without considering the rest of the equation.

win small pots lose big pots situation.
 
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Just as others stated, K 3 is a hand that should hit the muck preflop especially considering the raise came from the SB and you had a few live hands to act after you. After the river your hand can only beat a bluff
 
mbrenneman0

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How is 3betting AA a bluff ? it's slam dunk value.
I understand that you dont play a lot of live so you probably arent getting the same reads that me an c9 are, but people limp call a 2bet all day, but limp-calling a 3bet just doesnt happen, although villains $8 raise is supposed to be an ISO in villains mind, its not going to get the job done, also, if villain was confident in his hand he would have raised bigger. period. he is competent enough to raise KQo to the appropriate size of 15 to 20 here, so he accidently cut most of the top of his ISO range off by not ISOing the proper amount. when we 3bet, even a small sizing, we can only really expect a call from villain about 20% of the time.
 
PaxMundi

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I understand that you dont play a lot of live so you probably arent getting the same reads that me an c9 are, but people limp call a 2bet all day, but limp-calling a 3bet just doesnt happen, although villains $8 raise is supposed to be an ISO in villains mind, its not going to get the job done, also, if villain was confident in his hand he would have raised bigger. period. he is competent enough to raise KQo to the appropriate size of 15 to 20 here, so he accidently cut most of the top of his ISO range off by not ISOing the proper amount. when we 3bet, even a small sizing, we can only really expect a call from villain about 20% of the time.

I don't ever play live so this is strictly from an online perspective.
 
mbrenneman0

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Just trying to think outside the box man. dont get locked into one way of thinking. its not good for your game long term
 
PaxMundi

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Completely agree but you also don't want to overthink certain spots to much.
 
c9h13no3

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Yeah, flatting with premiums is setting money on fire in this spot. There are very few hands I'd flat in this spot (22-88, 78s-QJs). We're so out of position, and the SPR is going to be tiny. Even multiway hands like suited aces will be tough to play.
 
HK_47

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I don't like this call preflop especially with a 3bet, also firing into 5 people doesn't exactly justify calling with a bluff catcher. I really don't think this hand was played well at all, you are beat 99/100 times here and should not be playing this in the first place.
 
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