$200 NLHE Full Ring: Calling with 6's and rivering the nuts

thepokerkid123

thepokerkid123

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$200 NL HE Full Ring: Calling with 6's and rivering the nuts

There's a hand that a buddy of mine has been disagreeing with me on for a while now, this wouldn't bother me except he's actually a decent player and I really don't think I did anything in this hand that I wouldn't do again.

I've got As6s in the CO, I'm at 100bb, villain has 400bb two seats to my right.

Here's how it went down:
Folded to villain who raises to 4bb. It's call or raise, but I choose to call because his range is mostly big cards and pocket pairs and even though I expect to see a lot of SCs show up as well I still don't want to get 4bet which I expect to happen most of the time. I call. BB calls. BB's range here is very wide but he's been leaking chips badly (loose calls/bets mostly) so having him in the hand isn't all bad.

Pot: 12bb.
Flop: Ks6c3d

BB checks, villain bets 7bb. Here I think it's an easy call, BB most likely missed, Villain is c-betting a lot of air (he'll be thinking BB is no threat and he doesn't know how wide my range is so he's thinking I can only hit the K and he'd take that risk). Basically any made hand I'm behind but I have 3 aces, 2 sixes and a backdoor flushdraw for that and my 6 is good for bluff catching value. Some people would raise here to find out if they're up against air or a made hand (would also fold out a lot of better made hands) but I chose to call because there are a ton of turn cards that give me a hand that will get paid by the top of his range, as opposed to just raising and beating the bottom of his range for a small pot. So I call and BB calls behind, as far as I'm concerned just giving value.

Pot: 33bb
Turn: Qs

BB checks, villain bets 18bb. Now I'm thinking his range is a lot stronger, at least the K but I now have a flush draw with an ace overcard that is live much more often than not, also any six gives me trips. That's what, 14 outs or 28%ish, I'm getting odds on the call but would it be better to semi-bluff? I just don't see him folding a K, I mean, all he's scared of is a bigger kicker or a set and will he fold something like KJ? I don't want to bluff into it. I call. BB folds, no idea what he had, thanks for the chips though.

Pot: 69bb.
River: Ts

Villain checks, I shove for roughly 71bb. Villain calls and turns over KQ for top two. Later he says he made a mistake calling on the river because it completed the flush and straight, but honestly I don't think he can put me on a backdoor draw and fold to it unless I'm betting 150% of the pot or more.

So anyway, I played this one passively, I didn't actually bet until the river.

I shoved the river, mostly because I think bets of pot size or smaller are hard to fold a good hand to on the river and be correct in doing so. At least, that's my rationale against this player but I'll make the same raise against a fish because they seem to look at it as "he's either bluffing or he's not" and I haven't noticed a great change in the amount of calls based on raise size until we get over 120% of the pot size, or thereabouts.


Also, on the flop I had 5 outs plus the backdoor flush, this alone is enough for me to be comfortable calling a c-bet but the pair of sixes just made it even better. Do you think this is the right way of looking at it, or am I calling too light?


Hand well played or I'm an idiot?
 
slycbnew

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Meh imo.

A6s plays poorly, this is a fold pf in my book - A5s (or another wheel card), I'd be more interested, though I'd generally raise rather than flat in CO to shut out the btn and to get initiative. The only flops I'll be happy to see w A6s have an A or have at least two spades. With Axs where x is a wheel card, we can also get interested in low card flops.

I'd think the K hits his range pretty solidly and pairing the 6 has little value, calling here is spew imo. We're looking for really 5 outs (the two remaining 6's and three A's) or a runner/runner flush if we're calling.

We turn the nut fd with a crappy pair, but again the Q hits his range pretty solidly. As played, I agree w calling here, no point in semi-bluffing, FE is not good here and our outs are not substantial enough to rely purely on hitting our draws. But it's a spot where we're going to spew by getting to this point in the first place.

Shove on river is absolutely correct as played. The fact that Villain calls can be used to rationalize the implied odds we had from pf through the turn, but it's still a rationalization imo.
 
Weregoat

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When I play a hand like Ax suited, I'm looking for 2 to my suit on the flop. Also, when calling a bet on the flop, I'm looking for a certain card to come on the turn. "Hrm, the 4s gives me a gutshot as well as a flush draw."

That being said, I don't play a lot of Ax suited post flop.

Glad it worked out for you, good of you to know you're opponent probably had the K and you had little to no FE. Keep in mind against a villain with a smaller stack (or you having a smaller stack) you probably would not have had the odds to make these plays.

On the turn you're looking for an A or 6 to get made (5 outs, 3 of which you're not sure are clean), or a spade to buy you 9 more outs - If none of those come you dump, having cost only 11 BBs. Instead you got paid like a decent bit more by the right cards coming.

Also, you had the second nuts here.
 
thepokerkid123

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A6s plays poorly, this is a fold pf in my book - A5s (or another wheel card), I'd be more interested, though I'd generally raise rather than flat in CO to shut out the btn and to get initiative.
I actually hadn't thought of any real advantage to playing A2-A5, afterall you're always going to be drawing to only 4 outs for a straight but those 4 outs in addition to some other kind of draw could give you a real hand. Good point.
I was wondering when I wrote the OP if I should put in some justification for playing Axs in the CO against a raise. Going straight to "call or raise" is a bit spewy. My justifications: My A will win me some small pots, my 6 has little value. A flush draw will give me reason to bet/raise and win me the pot often. I have position so if I do make my hand I can get chips in.
Which is still a little questionable and now I that I think about it, I probably need an opponent who is going to make some major post flop mistakes to call/raise A6s. If he folds too much or is a calling station then the situation changes entirely. I get a little too used to such weak opposition that A6s in the CO = pay day, here though it's probably a fold.

I'd think the K hits his range pretty solidly and pairing the 6 has little value, calling here is spew imo.
I call here only because the K is the only card that hits his range. AK-AJ only one combination in that makes a hand. KQ-KJ, that makes a total 3 hands he could have, all pocket pairs (except aces, which I guess he could have) see the K as a big scare card (and are basically never getting to the river if I don't fold on the flop). SCs have missed (except 45 which has a draw).
So the hands that he could have are AA, AK, KQ, KJ. His range is a lot wider than that and I have good odds to improve if he does have it. I think most people in his spot would be c-betting close to 100% of the time with that board and BB's check, so I consider the air to still be in his range. This is why the 6 makes a difference for me.

We're looking for really 5 outs (the two remaining 6's and three A's) or a runner/runner flush if we're calling.
This I overlooked, I was looking for one more spade which makes my hand playable (i.e. might win me the pot unimproved) but really there's no way I can justify raising the turn if a spade hits because it only takes one bet to set up a river shove, I'd need a lot of fold equity to justify a bluff. I guess if he checks to me then my 4-flush has the fold equity that I was looking for.

When I play a hand like Ax suited, I'm looking for 2 to my suit on the flop. Also, when calling a bet on the flop, I'm looking for a certain card to come on the turn. "Hrm, the 4s gives me a gutshot as well as a flush draw."
Looking for one specific card is a longshot, it's 2%.
The reason I like the backdoor flushdraw is because it adds about 7% to my equity and has enormous implied odds, there are times when it seriously improves your hand.

Keep in mind against a villain with a smaller stack (or you having a smaller stack) you probably would not have had the odds to make these plays.
Exactly.

Also, you had the second nuts here.
If he had the royal flush, I would be a little suspicious of someone tampering with the deck.
 
daxter70

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J9s makes a str8 flush..not royal..:pepsi:
 
thepokerkid123

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I didn't see that one.

Fortunately it's so unlikely that I don't mind him taking my stack if he has it. :)
 
BelgoSuisse

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I agree with the way you played this hand. Obviously 3betting preflop or raising flop are possible alternatives, but playing this passively until the river comes is a valid option too. Especially true when the fish in BB improves your odds by contributing to the pot.
 
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I really think its a pre-flop fold. A-6 ? c'mon... and on the flop you hit a pair of 6 when there is a K on the table and kept calling?? you got a lot of luck on the river and nothing more then that. I don't think there was any reason or logic to play the way you did.
 
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Some posters really need to smack their inner nit a few times.

The call pre is fine. We're in position with a suited Ace, and hopefully good enough not to lose stacks of money on Ace high flops. We might encourage a call or two from the blinds with suited connectors/gappers and set ourself up for a double up should flushes come. Reraising pre is pretty bad IMO since our hand is dominated against real hands and drawing to 3 outs, so if we're called the pot gets swollen and we're in bad shape. We want to see a decently cheap flop in order to flop 2 pair + or nut flush draws or, use our positional advantage to outplay our opponent.

As far as the flop goes, calling is perfectly acceptable. In fact if folding is your default, then obviously you shouldn't bother calling pre. Villain should cbet this type of a board with almost his entire range. Most checks should be showdownable WA/WB hands such as QQ. If villain will shut down the turn a high % of the time without the goods (ie doesn't double barrell often) the call is even easier since the turn is so easy to play. Yea, if villain is tricky, the turn gets cloudy (and is probably a fold unimproved) but since this info isn't given, Im assuming both scenarios.

We also have a backdoor flush draw for tiny insurance. Raising isn't terrible, as we can fold out some hands that beat us (77-QQ) but I prefer to keep the pot smaller and call, and use our position to determine how to proceed

Turn comes. Ok we pick up a backdoor. The BB came along on the flop also... villain bets out a little over half the pot. Villain obviously has a real hand here. Likely minimum KJ or better since he is firing a second shell after 2 opponents have called him on a fairly dry board. Range is probably skewed to AK AA KQ KK at this point, raising the turn is pretty horrible since it won't fold out many of these hands ever, it blows up the pot with only 1 card to come and we squeeze out the BB (something we don't really want in this spot, since it's pretty apparently we need to improve to win and if we do, we should be ahead of both opponents. Since villain bet only half the pot , getting 3:1 (maybe 4:1 if BB comes along) we can profitably call, although we could be in for some reverse implied odds situations should an Ace drop (or a 6 if he has KK)

River is a little tricky and probably villain dependant. Obviously we're betting, but the decision is between shoving or betting roughly half our stack. We need to figure out the range of hands villain will call 35-40 BBs with that will fold to a shove of 71BBs. The narrower this range is the more shoving becomes the play, the wider it is the more betting 35-40 BBs becomes the play
 
Weregoat

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Looking for one specific card is a longshot, it's 2%.

I'm not gonna lie. I agree with you. I do believe I worded my opinion poorly. What I meant to say - somehow, someway - was that you're looking to not make the best hand on the turn, but get closer to your draw(s) on the turn. Ussually this can be done when the flop bet gives good pot odds - and the pot is small enough you can justify a call . . . (half the pot of $12 = $6, already called twice = 5:1 on your money, for instance, enormous implied odds - however a possible tough decision on the turn) - I wouldn't justify calling if the 4s were the only card that could improve me unless I figured I was getting 50:1. And even then I'd probably try to get my money in at another time. I play poker for the 80/20s, 70/30s, 60/40s, and 50/50s, not the 2/98s.
 
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